3 ms·

It’s interesting, and weird when you consider that the people who seem to be railing against this supposed censorship share significant overlap in the Venn diag

It’s interesting, and weird when you consider that the people who seem to be railing against this supposed censorship share significant overlap in the Venn diagram of people who complain about a growing sense of entitlement among others. Ironically at some point these same people decided that they deserve to be published wherever they want, and anything else is censorship. Presumably these are people who felt even harder done by when newspapers, magazines, and book publishers refused to give them full print runs too. Honestly though, I have another theory. There is no sense of entitlement or hypocrisy, no confusion about what is or isn’t censorship. What we’re seeing is almost purely calculated, and just about trying to get a bigger audience. Twenty years ago if you wanted to publish your ideas about the queen of England being a lizard, you had to either self-publish, rant to a crowd, print fliers, or get lucky. Not that long ago blogs and forums were a huge improvement for those people, and it’s still very effective, but less effective than Facebook or Twitter or YouTube. So do they really think that having the ability to self publish to the planet through blogs and modern self-publishing doesn’t count as speech? Or... do they just want more, and realize that position of “I want more” is less appealing than “I fight censorship!” It’s not that they don’t get it, it’s that it’s inconvenient to admit it?

chillacy 8y ago
Depressingly so much of politics is about coalitions and power instead of principles. What does abortion have to do with fiscal policy and ethnicity? And how come most people line up so perfectly in their beliefs with their peers?
PavlovsCat 8y ago
> in the Venn diagram The one you just made up from whole cloth? > Honestly though, I have another theory. Do you have an actual position, too?
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  You don't want to address actual people so you talk about a Venn diagramm you made up, and you have several theories, so I guess not one of them is what you actually think. Prove me wrong. You can't have two opinions, so is either one of those "theories" your opinion, or is neither? You see, I'm not being snarky when I'm being short, I'm giving the reader the benefit of the doubt. I can expand and substantiate everything I hint at, or I wouldn't hint at it. And also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word and then notice how HN is positively gushing with super-couched "arguments", in any thread. "I'm not entirely sure it would be impossible to theorize that"... it's like the only subjects many people are comfortable with talking about with any level of attention or intellectuality are those that are purely technical, i.e. where person doesn't need to have position. With anything that can't be decided by reading specs or benchmarks, wishy-washy stuff comes out, and doesn't get defended either. It just keeps getting posted, and calling it out may get downvoted -- as if showing something to mean nothing is worse than writing something that means nothing [0] -- but no actual defense, at most one half-assed attempt and when that is refuted, no conceding of a point either.. rinse, repeat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ2AH7u_9Xo&t=1m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ2AH7u_9Xo&t=1m10s > the ways in which we were turning politics into economics, and allowing our faculty of reason to be denigrated into a faculty of calculation ... which might lead a person to think that being in the majority makes them right, or that an imaginary Venn diagram describes all sorts of real people, or that truth is decided by votes, or that the wisdom with which someone votes makes a quantum leap when they reach 500 karma. Among other things. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18759743 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18759743
- dang 8y ago
  This breaks the site guidelines and is unacceptable. If you can't post thoughtfully and respectfully, regardless of how wrong someone else may be, please don't post here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago
    > Presumably these are people who felt even harder done by when newspapers, magazines, and book publishers refused to give them full print runs too. How is that respectful and thoughtful, how is it not snarky? Does this apply to people like Naomi Wu, and every other person who thinks payment processors and patron-like things should be neutral like banks are? No. The commenter didn't talk with all those people, if they even talked with one, they didn't do it on HN. Hence, made up. > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says Your interpretation apparently is "that person can't post thoughtfully and respectfully". Not, say, "that Venn diagramm is made up from whole cloth, and they're unhappy about the thread being full of comments seeming to defend others being censored without even owning that, and ended up being snarky in response to someone who was snarky about hundreds if not thousands of people in their comment". That doesn't excuse my snark, but it does call the even application of the guidelines into question. And if you feel free to question my general ability to post thoughtfully and respectfully, that's not really better than me asking someone "if they even have a position". Yes, I can post thoughtfully and respectfully, or I wouldn't have been posting here since 2013. I wouldn't have taken a break for nearly 2 years when Trump was elected because I noticed I was getting to short-tempered, either. But that's also why I'm not going to grovel and promise "that I can post respectfully and thoughtfully". I think we have very different outlooks, maybe you don't consider it respectless to be thoughtless, cold or even cruel with plausible deniability, or in someone's absence. I consider it more respectful to contradict someone directly, and candidly. Sorry to toufiqbarhamov for implying they might not have a position, that was uncalled for. But I still might have asked what their position is, if it's one of the two theories or a third one, just without snark. And I stand by the Venn diagramm being made up from whole cloth, I'd like to see someone seriously claim it's not. So, I guess this gains little to nothing. So dang, you just have to do whatever you want to do. If you found this comment super problematic and the comment it was a response to thoughtful, and saw my comment because it was flagged, I bet you that if you look through my comments you wouldn't need to go far to find reasons to ban me. You have my blessing, not that you need it. It's not like my comments are very useful to many people here anyway. They're useful for me, because they happen to be what I actually think, but they get precious little replies as is anyway, and believe it or not, I don't actually enjoy arguing with people. I would rather upvote them, or upvote someone who refuted something I noticed. I certainly don't enjoy being as short as I can at first, and getting one-liner replies to that, then making my case thoroughly, and getting nothing. I still do it because I can always see if I can reuse material from my own comments, but being hellbanned would make not much practical difference in my case, and at this point, I can't even guess what kind of community you envision for HN, so just do your thing, and have a good new year.
bunderbunder 8y ago
I've come to believe that one of the most under-recognized forces in politics is that people tend to fear that that others will treat them the way they would treat others.

chillacy 8y ago

Depressingly so much of politics is about coalitions and power instead of principles. What does abortion have to do with fiscal policy and ethnicity? And how come most people line up so perfectly in their beliefs with their peers?

PavlovsCat 8y ago

> in the Venn diagram The one you just made up from whole cloth? > Honestly though, I have another theory. Do you have an actual position, too?

PavlovsCat 8y ago
You don't want to address actual people so you talk about a Venn diagramm you made up, and you have several theories, so I guess not one of them is what you actually think. Prove me wrong. You can't have two opinions, so is either one of those "theories" your opinion, or is neither? You see, I'm not being snarky when I'm being short, I'm giving the reader the benefit of the doubt. I can expand and substantiate everything I hint at, or I wouldn't hint at it. And also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word and then notice how HN is positively gushing with super-couched "arguments", in any thread. "I'm not entirely sure it would be impossible to theorize that"... it's like the only subjects many people are comfortable with talking about with any level of attention or intellectuality are those that are purely technical, i.e. where person doesn't need to have position. With anything that can't be decided by reading specs or benchmarks, wishy-washy stuff comes out, and doesn't get defended either. It just keeps getting posted, and calling it out may get downvoted -- as if showing something to mean nothing is worse than writing something that means nothing [0] -- but no actual defense, at most one half-assed attempt and when that is refuted, no conceding of a point either.. rinse, repeat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ2AH7u_9Xo&t=1m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ2AH7u_9Xo&t=1m10s > the ways in which we were turning politics into economics, and allowing our faculty of reason to be denigrated into a faculty of calculation ... which might lead a person to think that being in the majority makes them right, or that an imaginary Venn diagram describes all sorts of real people, or that truth is decided by votes, or that the wisdom with which someone votes makes a quantum leap when they reach 500 karma. Among other things. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18759743 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18759743
dang 8y ago
This breaks the site guidelines and is unacceptable. If you can't post thoughtfully and respectfully, regardless of how wrong someone else may be, please don't post here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  > Presumably these are people who felt even harder done by when newspapers, magazines, and book publishers refused to give them full print runs too. How is that respectful and thoughtful, how is it not snarky? Does this apply to people like Naomi Wu, and every other person who thinks payment processors and patron-like things should be neutral like banks are? No. The commenter didn't talk with all those people, if they even talked with one, they didn't do it on HN. Hence, made up. > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says Your interpretation apparently is "that person can't post thoughtfully and respectfully". Not, say, "that Venn diagramm is made up from whole cloth, and they're unhappy about the thread being full of comments seeming to defend others being censored without even owning that, and ended up being snarky in response to someone who was snarky about hundreds if not thousands of people in their comment". That doesn't excuse my snark, but it does call the even application of the guidelines into question. And if you feel free to question my general ability to post thoughtfully and respectfully, that's not really better than me asking someone "if they even have a position". Yes, I can post thoughtfully and respectfully, or I wouldn't have been posting here since 2013. I wouldn't have taken a break for nearly 2 years when Trump was elected because I noticed I was getting to short-tempered, either. But that's also why I'm not going to grovel and promise "that I can post respectfully and thoughtfully". I think we have very different outlooks, maybe you don't consider it respectless to be thoughtless, cold or even cruel with plausible deniability, or in someone's absence. I consider it more respectful to contradict someone directly, and candidly. Sorry to toufiqbarhamov for implying they might not have a position, that was uncalled for. But I still might have asked what their position is, if it's one of the two theories or a third one, just without snark. And I stand by the Venn diagramm being made up from whole cloth, I'd like to see someone seriously claim it's not. So, I guess this gains little to nothing. So dang, you just have to do whatever you want to do. If you found this comment super problematic and the comment it was a response to thoughtful, and saw my comment because it was flagged, I bet you that if you look through my comments you wouldn't need to go far to find reasons to ban me. You have my blessing, not that you need it. It's not like my comments are very useful to many people here anyway. They're useful for me, because they happen to be what I actually think, but they get precious little replies as is anyway, and believe it or not, I don't actually enjoy arguing with people. I would rather upvote them, or upvote someone who refuted something I noticed. I certainly don't enjoy being as short as I can at first, and getting one-liner replies to that, then making my case thoroughly, and getting nothing. I still do it because I can always see if I can reuse material from my own comments, but being hellbanned would make not much practical difference in my case, and at this point, I can't even guess what kind of community you envision for HN, so just do your thing, and have a good new year.

bunderbunder 8y ago

I've come to believe that one of the most under-recognized forces in politics is that people tend to fear that that others will treat them the way they would treat others.