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The article, while making copious allusions to damning research, is light on actual damning research and heavy on rhetoric. The linked website (http://sugarscie

The article, while making copious allusions to damning research, is light on actual damning research and heavy on rhetoric. The linked website (http://sugarscience.ucsf.edu http://sugarscience.ucsf.edu) is also full of references to studies that are suggestive but nothing conclusive. What's really worrying is the constant refrain that they just "knew" something had to be wrong. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their research. They then keep following up with references to diabetes, as if diabetes is obviously a sugar consumption problem, but I understand that that's not the case (https://www.diabetes.org.uk/guide-to-diabetes/enjoy-food/eating-with-diabetes/diabetes-food-myths/myth-sugar-causes-diabetes https://www.diabetes.org.uk/guide-to-diabetes/enjoy-food/eat...). All in all, with references to research that is weaker than they suggest, fearmongering rhetoric, and pushing a narrative of Big Sugar stifling honest, brave scientists, this article is indistinguishable to a layman (me) from an antivaxxer screed. And honestly? The comments here are also indistinguishable from comments on an antivax website.

will_brown 8y ago
>They then keep following up with references to diabetes, as if diabetes is obviously a sugar consumption problem, but I understand that that's not the case In good faith anyone talking about sugar consumption being the cause of diabeties is obviously talking about type 2. Your linked articles is muddying the waters and introducing type 1 highlighting people are born with type 1...no one thinks type 1 has anything to do with sugar consumption. That is elementary and bad faith discussion. Type 2 is when the body no longer responds to insulin. What triggers insulin? Types of sugar not processed by the liver, which go into the blood and requirie the body to produce insulin to regulate blood sugar levels. With type 2 the body continues to produce insulin normally but the body no longer responds to the insulin...it’s all triggered by sugar. To put it another way if you remove sugars requiring insulin production from the diet...100% of type 2 cases can be prevented. Only laymen argue this point as it’s not controversial...all thats needed is a single case of type 2 to disprove that, but none exist to date. Further, many cases of type 2 can actually be reversed through diet (ie avoid sugars that trigger insulin spikes) and lifestyle changes. How about nonalcoholic fatty liver disease? Do you believe that is not caused by the other types of sugar (ie sugar processed in the liver)?
- solveit 8y ago
  The link I included specifically says: > With Type 2 diabetes, though we know sugar doesn’t directly cause Type 2 diabetes, you are more likely to get it if you are overweight. You gain weight when you take in more calories than your body needs, and sugary foods and drinks contain a lot of calories. It's misleading to talk about sugar when the problem is obesity. I don't have answers to your questions as I am not an expert on nutrition and it would be stupid to hold opinions on what I don't know. However, I don't have to be an expert on nutrition to note that the UCSF link is contradicting other domain experts (may or may not be damning) and is being intellectually dishonest (definitely damning).
  - b_tterc_p 8y ago
    It’s misleading to deflect from sugar onto obesity when consumption of sugary foods is a primary driver of obesity.
    - abaldwin7302 8y ago
      It's an important distinction though. It's possible to consume sugary foods and not be obese. See twinkie diet.
      - will_brown 8y ago
        But skinny people get diabeties also...and if you follow a Twinkie diet and manage to keep your calories consistent and not gain weight you will be priming your body for obesity. All those twinkies have triggered insulin, a side effect of which increases cell size, with significant impact on fat cells. If your fat cells are enlarged from insulin, then you are primed to become obese because your cells are ready to store more than someone who hasn’t been wrecking their body with insulin spikes from twinkies all day every day.
      - b_tterc_p 8y ago
        The Twinkie diet and similar diets are straw men. The fact that it is possible to consume high quantities of sugar and not gain weight is not surprising. The reality is that consumption of high sugar foods (especially high sugar low calorie like many sugary drinks) prime you to eat more. There is a causative relationship between consuming sugary foods and consuming too much. This can be overcome with unnatural levels of attention, however this is a fringe edge case and generally not relevant to discussing the broad impact of sugar in western diets.
Gibbon1 8y ago
So here are some facts: Type II diabetes used to be rare. Obesity was not uncommon however the incidence was stable. Now both have become prevalent in the last 50 years. You know what I do when faced with a poorly understood system that used to behave before a bunch of changes were made but now does not? I revert back all the suspicious changes.
- solveit 8y ago
  Yes, but you're cherrypicking changes based on what feels like should be relevant. A good deal has changed in the last 50 years, we can't (and don't want to) roll everything back, and it's unclear what should be rolled back. Seriously, there's a reason epidemiology is a field smart people dedicate lifetimes to. This shit is difficult. Anyway, my point wasn't that current levels of sugar consumption are fine, it's clearly not. I'm saying that the article is being dishonest which should be relevant even if their recommendations are good.

will_brown 8y ago

>They then keep following up with references to diabetes, as if diabetes is obviously a sugar consumption problem, but I understand that that's not the case In good faith anyone talking about sugar consumption being the cause of diabeties is obviously talking about type 2. Your linked articles is muddying the waters and introducing type 1 highlighting people are born with type 1...no one thinks type 1 has anything to do with sugar consumption. That is elementary and bad faith discussion. Type 2 is when the body no longer responds to insulin. What triggers insulin? Types of sugar not processed by the liver, which go into the blood and requirie the body to produce insulin to regulate blood sugar levels. With type 2 the body continues to produce insulin normally but the body no longer responds to the insulin...it’s all triggered by sugar. To put it another way if you remove sugars requiring insulin production from the diet...100% of type 2 cases can be prevented. Only laymen argue this point as it’s not controversial...all thats needed is a single case of type 2 to disprove that, but none exist to date. Further, many cases of type 2 can actually be reversed through diet (ie avoid sugars that trigger insulin spikes) and lifestyle changes. How about nonalcoholic fatty liver disease? Do you believe that is not caused by the other types of sugar (ie sugar processed in the liver)?

solveit 8y ago
The link I included specifically says: > With Type 2 diabetes, though we know sugar doesn’t directly cause Type 2 diabetes, you are more likely to get it if you are overweight. You gain weight when you take in more calories than your body needs, and sugary foods and drinks contain a lot of calories. It's misleading to talk about sugar when the problem is obesity. I don't have answers to your questions as I am not an expert on nutrition and it would be stupid to hold opinions on what I don't know. However, I don't have to be an expert on nutrition to note that the UCSF link is contradicting other domain experts (may or may not be damning) and is being intellectually dishonest (definitely damning).
- b_tterc_p 8y ago
  It’s misleading to deflect from sugar onto obesity when consumption of sugary foods is a primary driver of obesity.
  - abaldwin7302 8y ago
    It's an important distinction though. It's possible to consume sugary foods and not be obese. See twinkie diet.
    - will_brown 8y ago
      But skinny people get diabeties also...and if you follow a Twinkie diet and manage to keep your calories consistent and not gain weight you will be priming your body for obesity. All those twinkies have triggered insulin, a side effect of which increases cell size, with significant impact on fat cells. If your fat cells are enlarged from insulin, then you are primed to become obese because your cells are ready to store more than someone who hasn’t been wrecking their body with insulin spikes from twinkies all day every day.
    - b_tterc_p 8y ago
      The Twinkie diet and similar diets are straw men. The fact that it is possible to consume high quantities of sugar and not gain weight is not surprising. The reality is that consumption of high sugar foods (especially high sugar low calorie like many sugary drinks) prime you to eat more. There is a causative relationship between consuming sugary foods and consuming too much. This can be overcome with unnatural levels of attention, however this is a fringe edge case and generally not relevant to discussing the broad impact of sugar in western diets.

Gibbon1 8y ago

So here are some facts: Type II diabetes used to be rare. Obesity was not uncommon however the incidence was stable. Now both have become prevalent in the last 50 years. You know what I do when faced with a poorly understood system that used to behave before a bunch of changes were made but now does not? I revert back all the suspicious changes.

solveit 8y ago
Yes, but you're cherrypicking changes based on what feels like should be relevant. A good deal has changed in the last 50 years, we can't (and don't want to) roll everything back, and it's unclear what should be rolled back. Seriously, there's a reason epidemiology is a field smart people dedicate lifetimes to. This shit is difficult. Anyway, my point wasn't that current levels of sugar consumption are fine, it's clearly not. I'm saying that the article is being dishonest which should be relevant even if their recommendations are good.