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> Largely because the opposition did exactly that: they started deplatforming and attempting to more coercively prevent right wing views from speaking. Deplatfo

by darawk 8y ago

> Largely because the opposition did exactly that: they started deplatforming and attempting to more coercively prevent right wing views from speaking. Deplatforming grew in popularity around 2013 or 2014. Students at Brown shut down Ray Kelly's speech in 2014 [1]. We did prevent these groups from going out into the sunlight. That gave them the chance to grow in the shadows. I'm not a fan of de-platforming, but there's pretty decent evidence that it can be effective [1]. I'm aware of no empirical data supporting the notion that it is counter-productive. That being said, it's certainly a theoretical possibility. It could be the case that exposing ideas to the light of day robs them of their power. But then, why are conspiracy theories so persistent? Why was Alex Jones so successful, in spite of the unbelivably simplistic and falsifiable lies he was telling? I see almost zero evidence that sunlight acts as a disinfectant for ideas that appeal to people's preconceptions, and a lot of evidence that the modern left's tactics of shaming and de-platforming are actually the most effective ways to change culture and minds. To be clear, I don't like those tactics. I think that, in the very long run, they are probably harmful. But it is hard to seriously deny their efficacy. > Also, with regards to Trump, I largely see his election as happening despite his association with the alt right rather than because of it. It's a big liability not just for him, but the Republican party. Trump's biggest advantage wasn't anything to do with him, but the fact that Democrats had alienated manyc centrists in the leadup to the election, and fielded a candidate that lacked the enthusiasm to rally their base. I think that's part of it. Another part of it is that Trump saw through the stalemate stable equilibrium of left/right politics in the US. He correctly surmised that there was a middle path, that activated ethnic and nationalistic identities of the right, while simultaneously stoking economic anxiety traditionally associated with the left, to form a coalition that had unanticipated electoral power. 1. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-media-bans-work https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-...

manfredo 8y ago
That deplatforming deprives the person being deplatformed of a platform is obvious, to the point that it's effectively a tautology. However, concluding that this means deplatforming is effective is extremely naive. When tech companies engage in acts of censorship like deplatforming, it causes many do lose trust in the perceived lack of partiality of these platforms. So while individual people getting censored may see their audiences diminish, support for the views they espouse and distrust of the authority carrying out the censorship often increase. In case it wasn't clear, the lack of efficacy in deplatforming I referred to in my previous comment was in reference to attempts to curb ideas and political movements - not individuals within those. Again, deplatforming gained traction in the early to mid 2010s. It coincides more or less directly with the rise of the Alt Right. Increases in deplatforming is correlated with support for the far right, not against it.
- darawk 8y ago
  > That deplatforming deprives the person being deplatformed of a platform is obvious, to the point that it's effectively a tautology. However, concluding that this means deplatforming is effective is extremely naive. When tech companies engage in acts of censorship like deplatforming, it causes many do lose trust in the perceived lack of partiality of these platforms. So while individual people getting censored may see their audiences diminish, support for the views they espouse and distrust of the authority carrying out the censorship often increase. In case it wasn't clear, the lack of efficacy in deplatforming I referred to in my previous comment was in reference to attempts to curb ideas and political movements - not individuals within those. It didn't just impact the individuals, it reduced the behavior site-wide. > Again, deplatforming gained traction in the early to mid 2010s. It coincides more or less directly with the rise of the Alt Right. Increases in deplatforming is correlated with support for the far right, not against it. This is a pretty clear correlation/causality confusion. If factor A is on the rise and triggers reaction B, you cannot use the rise of B to prove that B caused A. Now, your narrative may be correct, but the narrative story you've provided does not demonstrate it.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    > It didn't just impact the individuals, it reduced the behavior site-wide. And? Even saying it reduced the behavior site-wide is not an effective measurement to conclude that deplatforming works in reducing the prevalence of those views in society. Again, "Deplatforming X views from platform Y resulted in less of X on platform Y" is effectively stating the obvious. To demonstrate the effectiveness of deplatforming, one would have to determine whether deplatforming actually results in fewer people believing in the views that are being deplatformed. I have not encountered any instance of this occurring. Ask yourself this: when you are banned from a forum for views you believe in, or you witness someone banned for views you agree with do you tend to turn around agree with the censor? Or do you become more enthusiastic for that view and lose respect for the censor > This is a pretty clear correlation/causality confusion. If factor A is on the rise and triggers reaction B, you cannot use the rise of B to prove that B caused A. Now, your narrative may be correct, but the narrative story you've provided does not demonstrate it. We're seeing trust in media and tech companies plummet. While the fact that a rise in extremist views is correlated with increases in deplatforming is not hard evidence of causation, it's extremely difficult to claim that deplatforming works to reduce said views in the face of that positive correlation between the two. That's trying to claim a causal relationship in the face of evidence of the opposite correlation. In other words, if we see A rise alongside B it is indeed jumping the gun to say that A certainly causes B. But it's even more dubious to say that A reduces B in the face of that correlation.

by darawk 8y ago

manfredo 8y ago

That deplatforming deprives the person being deplatformed of a platform is obvious, to the point that it's effectively a tautology. However, concluding that this means deplatforming is effective is extremely naive. When tech companies engage in acts of censorship like deplatforming, it causes many do lose trust in the perceived lack of partiality of these platforms. So while individual people getting censored may see their audiences diminish, support for the views they espouse and distrust of the authority carrying out the censorship often increase. In case it wasn't clear, the lack of efficacy in deplatforming I referred to in my previous comment was in reference to attempts to curb ideas and political movements - not individuals within those. Again, deplatforming gained traction in the early to mid 2010s. It coincides more or less directly with the rise of the Alt Right. Increases in deplatforming is correlated with support for the far right, not against it.

darawk 8y ago
> That deplatforming deprives the person being deplatformed of a platform is obvious, to the point that it's effectively a tautology. However, concluding that this means deplatforming is effective is extremely naive. When tech companies engage in acts of censorship like deplatforming, it causes many do lose trust in the perceived lack of partiality of these platforms. So while individual people getting censored may see their audiences diminish, support for the views they espouse and distrust of the authority carrying out the censorship often increase. In case it wasn't clear, the lack of efficacy in deplatforming I referred to in my previous comment was in reference to attempts to curb ideas and political movements - not individuals within those. It didn't just impact the individuals, it reduced the behavior site-wide. > Again, deplatforming gained traction in the early to mid 2010s. It coincides more or less directly with the rise of the Alt Right. Increases in deplatforming is correlated with support for the far right, not against it. This is a pretty clear correlation/causality confusion. If factor A is on the rise and triggers reaction B, you cannot use the rise of B to prove that B caused A. Now, your narrative may be correct, but the narrative story you've provided does not demonstrate it.
- manfredo 8y ago
  > It didn't just impact the individuals, it reduced the behavior site-wide. And? Even saying it reduced the behavior site-wide is not an effective measurement to conclude that deplatforming works in reducing the prevalence of those views in society. Again, "Deplatforming X views from platform Y resulted in less of X on platform Y" is effectively stating the obvious. To demonstrate the effectiveness of deplatforming, one would have to determine whether deplatforming actually results in fewer people believing in the views that are being deplatformed. I have not encountered any instance of this occurring. Ask yourself this: when you are banned from a forum for views you believe in, or you witness someone banned for views you agree with do you tend to turn around agree with the censor? Or do you become more enthusiastic for that view and lose respect for the censor > This is a pretty clear correlation/causality confusion. If factor A is on the rise and triggers reaction B, you cannot use the rise of B to prove that B caused A. Now, your narrative may be correct, but the narrative story you've provided does not demonstrate it. We're seeing trust in media and tech companies plummet. While the fact that a rise in extremist views is correlated with increases in deplatforming is not hard evidence of causation, it's extremely difficult to claim that deplatforming works to reduce said views in the face of that positive correlation between the two. That's trying to claim a causal relationship in the face of evidence of the opposite correlation. In other words, if we see A rise alongside B it is indeed jumping the gun to say that A certainly causes B. But it's even more dubious to say that A reduces B in the face of that correlation.