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This seems as if its pointed at me. I will say that I find it sad that modern discourse has reached such a sad state that we suspect everyone who has a nonconf

This seems as if its pointed at me. I will say that I find it sad that modern discourse has reached such a sad state that we suspect everyone who has a nonconformist opinion of being a bot/robot/astroturfer. All I will say is that I am no lover of China. Chinese civilization, like Western civilization has exhibited anti-black tendencies and attitudes. The Chinese are great lovers of African markets, but not African people. I do encourage you though to try to understand the African perspective on this issue, as well as other related issues that you may not generally understand before you try to characterize it as propaganda. Modern Africa is in a state of flux and deeply in need of infrastructure. There are many who say there are heavy costs to Chinese built infrastructure in Africa, Those same analysts will not reflect on the severe costs currently to Africa of its lack of infrastructures. The absence of intra-regional rail, highways, of connected electricity grids, of pipes and pipelines. If the West is truly concerned about African welfare, they can always step to the fore with their own expansive infrastructure agenda, but they largely won't, and we all know the reason why.

forapurpose 8y ago
In my experience, if someone mentions propaganda then one can expect something like the parent comment with the exact same arguments to appear. > This seems as if its pointed at me. It's not; it's not pointed at anyone, as I stated, and I had no idea of your existence until now. Please don't put words in my mouth. > I do encourage you though to try to understand You have no idea what I understand or don't understand, where I'm from, or anything else about me; keep your unfounded accusations to yourself. We're here to talk about ideas, not each other, and you don't know anything about me regardless. > we suspect everyone who has a nonconformist opinion of being a bot/robot/astroturfer. Looking at this discussion, your opinion seems to agree with the majority, so this well-worn complaint doesn't apply at all.
- dang 8y ago
  Now you've crossed into outright incivility. Please stop.
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    I wanted to edit it, as I said in my other comment, but I can't seem to do it now. Perhaps because it's flagged? If you see this and can delete it, that's fine with me. For the record, I don't think slightly sharp language defending myself against unfounded accusations is "outright incivility", but it's not worth discussing. Whether or not I agree, it seems more constructive to just delete it.
    - dang 8y ago
      OK, I've killed that comment and will kill the replies.
forapurpose 8y ago
It was not pointed at you or at anyone; it was a comment about my general experience as an HN user. I didn't realize that your account existed before you replied. My motives and knowledge, including about Africa (a word I personally wouldn't use for a very large and diverse area), are not what you assume; please don't attribute things to me. FWIW, Western analysts have talked about the problems of Sub-Saharan African infrastructure extensively and for a long time, and the West has attempted to fund it. IIRC, generally it has been found that foreign-built and -funded infrastructure projects fail, due to problems like corruption, rule of law issues, lack of involvement by local communities, lack of understanding by foreign funders, and lack of capacity for maintenance. As an analogy, you can't just drop an infrastructure project on a country any more than you can just drop an ERP system on a company; the company has to be ready, have capabilities, and needs a lot of highly effective consulting if you want a chance of success. The West's prior attempts at funding led to a massive 'debt trap' for many poor countries, making debt relief a major priority (and one that was resolved to a large extent). As I understand it, the predominant view now is that developing local capabilities, including building institutions and functioning government, is a necessary precursor to things like infrastructure. Kenya's problem with the port, on its surface, would seem to be a repeat of the old development pitfalls.

forapurpose 8y ago

In my experience, if someone mentions propaganda then one can expect something like the parent comment with the exact same arguments to appear. > This seems as if its pointed at me. It's not; it's not pointed at anyone, as I stated, and I had no idea of your existence until now. Please don't put words in my mouth. > I do encourage you though to try to understand You have no idea what I understand or don't understand, where I'm from, or anything else about me; keep your unfounded accusations to yourself. We're here to talk about ideas, not each other, and you don't know anything about me regardless. > we suspect everyone who has a nonconformist opinion of being a bot/robot/astroturfer. Looking at this discussion, your opinion seems to agree with the majority, so this well-worn complaint doesn't apply at all.

dang 8y ago
Now you've crossed into outright incivility. Please stop.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  I wanted to edit it, as I said in my other comment, but I can't seem to do it now. Perhaps because it's flagged? If you see this and can delete it, that's fine with me. For the record, I don't think slightly sharp language defending myself against unfounded accusations is "outright incivility", but it's not worth discussing. Whether or not I agree, it seems more constructive to just delete it.
  - dang 8y ago
    OK, I've killed that comment and will kill the replies.

forapurpose 8y ago

It was not pointed at you or at anyone; it was a comment about my general experience as an HN user. I didn't realize that your account existed before you replied. My motives and knowledge, including about Africa (a word I personally wouldn't use for a very large and diverse area), are not what you assume; please don't attribute things to me. FWIW, Western analysts have talked about the problems of Sub-Saharan African infrastructure extensively and for a long time, and the West has attempted to fund it. IIRC, generally it has been found that foreign-built and -funded infrastructure projects fail, due to problems like corruption, rule of law issues, lack of involvement by local communities, lack of understanding by foreign funders, and lack of capacity for maintenance. As an analogy, you can't just drop an infrastructure project on a country any more than you can just drop an ERP system on a company; the company has to be ready, have capabilities, and needs a lot of highly effective consulting if you want a chance of success. The West's prior attempts at funding led to a massive 'debt trap' for many poor countries, making debt relief a major priority (and one that was resolved to a large extent). As I understand it, the predominant view now is that developing local capabilities, including building institutions and functioning government, is a necessary precursor to things like infrastructure. Kenya's problem with the port, on its surface, would seem to be a repeat of the old development pitfalls.