4 ms·

I have an unpopular opinion. Do you think this is actually an unpopular opinion, or just one not well represented by the two dominant national political partie

by nkurz 8y ago

I have an unpopular opinion. Do you think this is actually an unpopular opinion, or just one not well represented by the two dominant national political parties in America? You mention elsewhere that you are from small-town Wisconsin. I grew up there also (Ladysmith) and now live in a small town in Vermont. I feel like this attitude is still quite common in rural America. The downside of this framework is that it's hard to justify things like the Civil Rights movement (which I presume you agree was a mostly a positive?). How does one draw a line between "restaurants must serve customers regardless of race" and "businesses can choose not to offer services to racists"? Or does one give up on the first as well, and hope that the force of capitalism is strong enough to fill the gap?

bilbo0s 8y ago
>* Or does one give up on the first as well, and hope that the force of capitalism is strong enough to fill the gap? ...* Bingo! You're free not to allow blacks into your night club. And a lot of night clubs and country clubs do just that. A large number of my friends and I won't be patronizing your establishment either, but you're free to do as you like with your business.
astura 8y ago
> How does one draw a line between "restaurants must serve customers regardless of race" and "businesses can choose not to offer services to racists"? I believe the key difference is skin color is innate and being an asshole is not, you don't get to choose to be black, you do choose to be an asshole though. I think that the shift in popularity for gay rights mirrors the shift in acceptance that homosexual feelings are more innate than chosen.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  What are your thoughts on religious discrimination? As a former christian, I am well aware that being a christian is not innate. Furthermore I consider christian doctrine to be inherently discriminatory against people like me. Should it be legal for me to bar christians from my restaurant? Of the 11 federally protected classes, religion stands out as the only one that isn't innate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group Incidentally California prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of political activities or affiliations, which is a step further than the federal requirement: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/california-employment-discrimination-31690.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/california-employmen...
  - astura 8y ago
    To be clear, I wasn't really expressing much of a personal opinion, just thinking about the difference between the two and thinking about the profound shift in acceptance of gays in society in even the last decade. Personally... I'm not religious, I was raised an atheist, I don't like religion, and I don't really think it should be protected, but I sorta kinda understand why it is, religion seems "special." Veteran status is also protected under employment discrimination law, and military service isn't an innate attribute, however, its in the best interest for a country to protect those who have served it, especially those who were drafted. Family status is protected under housing discrimination law, and having a ton of kids isn't innate, but some can say that the urge to have children is actually innate. (Though as a person who never felt an urge to reproduce, I have a hard time actually understanding this) So yeah... we aren't 100% consistent.
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      > "Veteran status is also protected under employment discrimination law, and military service isn't an innate attribute" I'd say being a veteran is, once you're a veteran you cannot change that about yourself. You could decide to not become a veteran, but you can't unveteran yourself.
      - emiliobumachar 8y ago
        Also, there used to be a draft. Plenty of veterans alive today did not have a choice. That is not the same as "innate", but it's closer to that than to being a choice.
- manfredo 8y ago
  Political views are, in practice, immutable. Once they reach young adulthood, people's political views are less likely to change than their religious affiliation. While it's tempting to see political views as something that is chosen, it's not really the case. For example, if I told you to believe that gay marriage should not be a right for the next year, would you be able to do so? I can't. I could not do so for any amount of time; the fact that I believe in it is not something I can consciously change. In that sense, political views can be seen as innate rather than chosen.

by nkurz 8y ago

bilbo0s 8y ago

>* Or does one give up on the first as well, and hope that the force of capitalism is strong enough to fill the gap? ...* Bingo! You're free not to allow blacks into your night club. And a lot of night clubs and country clubs do just that. A large number of my friends and I won't be patronizing your establishment either, but you're free to do as you like with your business.

astura 8y ago

> How does one draw a line between "restaurants must serve customers regardless of race" and "businesses can choose not to offer services to racists"? I believe the key difference is skin color is innate and being an asshole is not, you don't get to choose to be black, you do choose to be an asshole though. I think that the shift in popularity for gay rights mirrors the shift in acceptance that homosexual feelings are more innate than chosen.

darkpuma 8y ago
What are your thoughts on religious discrimination? As a former christian, I am well aware that being a christian is not innate. Furthermore I consider christian doctrine to be inherently discriminatory against people like me. Should it be legal for me to bar christians from my restaurant? Of the 11 federally protected classes, religion stands out as the only one that isn't innate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group Incidentally California prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of political activities or affiliations, which is a step further than the federal requirement: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/california-employment-discrimination-31690.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/california-employmen...
- astura 8y ago
  To be clear, I wasn't really expressing much of a personal opinion, just thinking about the difference between the two and thinking about the profound shift in acceptance of gays in society in even the last decade. Personally... I'm not religious, I was raised an atheist, I don't like religion, and I don't really think it should be protected, but I sorta kinda understand why it is, religion seems "special." Veteran status is also protected under employment discrimination law, and military service isn't an innate attribute, however, its in the best interest for a country to protect those who have served it, especially those who were drafted. Family status is protected under housing discrimination law, and having a ton of kids isn't innate, but some can say that the urge to have children is actually innate. (Though as a person who never felt an urge to reproduce, I have a hard time actually understanding this) So yeah... we aren't 100% consistent.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    > "Veteran status is also protected under employment discrimination law, and military service isn't an innate attribute" I'd say being a veteran is, once you're a veteran you cannot change that about yourself. You could decide to not become a veteran, but you can't unveteran yourself.
    - emiliobumachar 8y ago
      Also, there used to be a draft. Plenty of veterans alive today did not have a choice. That is not the same as "innate", but it's closer to that than to being a choice.
manfredo 8y ago
Political views are, in practice, immutable. Once they reach young adulthood, people's political views are less likely to change than their religious affiliation. While it's tempting to see political views as something that is chosen, it's not really the case. For example, if I told you to believe that gay marriage should not be a right for the next year, would you be able to do so? I can't. I could not do so for any amount of time; the fact that I believe in it is not something I can consciously change. In that sense, political views can be seen as innate rather than chosen.