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The article avoids the specifics of what Benjamin said, which makes it hard to judge whether Patreon is acting reasonably. The interview in question is here: h

by nkurz 8y ago

The article avoids the specifics of what Benjamin said, which makes it hard to judge whether Patreon is acting reasonably. The interview in question is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ87Wf-0rZg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ87Wf-0rZg. Here are some excerpts from the automatically generated transcript (click the 3 dots, then "Open transcript"): I just can't be bothered to deal with people who treat me like this it's really annoying like I you are acting like a bunch of niggers just so you know you you act like white niggers exactly how you describe black people acting is the impression I get dealing with y'all don't expect me to them have a debate with one of your faggots then why would I bother bother you read like enough class I don't know maybe you're just acting like a nigga me have you considered that do you think white people act like this white people are meant to be polite and respectful to one another and you guys can't even act like white people it's about gaining attention and seems like kikes are ruining everything While one can reasonably to debate the whether Patreon should ban people based on ideology and off-site behavior, his comments do seem undeniably racist, anti-Semitic, and anti-homosexual.

darawk 8y ago
Thanks for posting the actual content. Too often I think the actual content of the statements is left out of these things for political reasons (on both sides, depending on the context). I don't agree with all of Patreon's decisions on stuff like this, but this one seems reasonable, now that I can see the actual text.
- asabjorn 8y ago
  This transcript shows Patreons malintent rather than alleviate our concerns with it, because they cut out essential context and in Matt Christiansens call with Patreon they admit the real cause was that they don't like his brand [1]. I challenge you to find racism and anti-semitic content on his channel. Transcript: "exactly how you describe black people acting is the impression I get dealing with y'all", the last word should be "the alt-right". Context: How is it not clear from reading this that he is saying that you act like a negative stereotype you've created? The alt-right Sargon is arguing against are (known for being) racist, anti-Semitic, and anti-homosexual. They used said slurs in the chat accompanying the livestream. Transcript: "kikes are ruining everything" Context: calling them out on acting like nazis - "And I see, like, 'kikes are ruining everything'. [laughs] Good—good—good job. Should tackle field [I can't understand this sentence]. You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis[clearly an ironic remark]! Great! Bravo!" Context: him calling the alt-right out for turning on one of their own because he is married to a Jewish person - "It's just like how Mike Enoch was treated, when people found out his wife was Jewish. It's just like, he had to go dark, he had to go off the internet, because of the way these people treat him. It's like, holy shit, that's one of your own? Oh, he's married to a Jew, well, I guess, that's a bit of bad luck to be married before he was an alt-righter. Yes, he did, well, there we go. Kind of like 'Millenial was sucking a dick'. You know, it's like, it's crazy. You guys have no decorum. There's no level too low to go to." [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U0mQjUA0T5INc_GDkwPJ2mfhO7tbaIogisSqqxHw0hc/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U0mQjUA0T5INc_GDkwPJ2mfh...
  - darawk 8y ago
    Hmm, you seem to be right. I guess even more context was necessary here.
    - asabjorn 8y ago
      NYT should have done this research instead of providing an ideologically tilted coverage. I want my newspaper back from the ideologues.
40acres 8y ago
A lot of times in these discussions folks like to abstract the actual instance that causes a controversy like this and instead change the conversation to rant about political correctness, centralization, and free speech. If you wrote what this guy wrote in an email at your job you would be fired on the spot, it doesn't matter who you worked for or what industry. No one would be able to get away with this kind of speech on a public forum because it's so outside of societies agreed realm of discourse and deliberately involves language used to justify literal genocide. Too often online the actual details of controversy are overlooked so folks can get all high minded about free speech. In all honesty it seems like a form of appeasement to me. Take a bit here, take a bit there, and eventually you end up with a gunman shooting up a synagogue and a woman being run over at a white nationalist rally.
- heagrees 8y ago
  Well, unfortunately for you he's agreeing with you. <random_username> was "shitposting" on the livestream chat about "kikes are ruining everything" and then he basically quoted him and said, "<random_username>, You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis! Great! Bravo!" This is a strange world that we're living in. Nowadays in our hyper politically correct world one is not even allowed to criticize people saying anti-semitic things...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
augustl 8y ago
According to Carl Benjamin himself, the comments were meant ironically. He was reacting to a chat stream, which is missing context in that video, and the chat used slurs like this. So Benjamin used the slurs back at them. Having said that, we have to assume Benjamin’s inner thoughts to know what he really meant, so I’m not arguing we should disregard it completely because of his alledged good intentions.
- nharada 8y ago
  I don't think you should get to walk back your shitty comments by claiming you were just joking the whole time. Based on this guy's past behavior, I don't think anyone is giving him the benefit of the doubt here either.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    It is obvious that much of this speech was sarcastic. To the point that I would say that it requires willful ignorance to say otherwise. Take for instance: > And I see, like, 'kikes are ruining everything'. [laughs] Good—good—good job... You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis! Great! Bravo!" Is it your genuine belief that the statement "You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis" was meant non-sarcastically? Do you genuinely believe that Benjamin stated that statements like "kikes are ruining everything" among the Alt-Right makes the group not look like Nazis? Again, to say "yes" to these questions requires willful ignorance in my opinion.
    - nkurz 8y ago
      I agree, if not sarcasm, "kikes are ruining everything" was clearly intended as mockery. I listened only the to the first part of the video, and then grabbed quotes from the transcript. If I'd understood the context, I wouldn't have included that one as an example.
  - augustl 8y ago
    Can we reliably read thoughts based on our imagining of his past thoughts? When I imagine his inner thoughts when listening to the clip, it sounds clearly like joking to me. Without any backtracking. We should not rely on imagining other people's inner thoughts... Not a very sound method.
gammateam 8y ago
If I was running a platform like Patreon I wouldnt moderate it. I cant relate to leadership teams that do this, much less passionately do it with blog posts and explanations. It is arbitrary. Its within their right whether the specific cause is something I agree with or not. I can say that I wouldnt be interested.
waterhouse 8y ago
Where the machine transcript says "exactly how you describe black people acting is the impression I get dealing with y'all", the last word should be "the alt-right". That is one piece of context: the people he's arguing against are (known for being) racist, anti-Semitic, and anti-homosexual. Further, the "kikes are ruining everything" part seems to be a paraphrasing of the alt-right: "Go and bother, like, mic.com's comment section or something. You know, they are actually getting millions of views? The thing is, they just ignore you, which is why you don't, because you're just attention-seeking. It's not about, like, actually doing any good, it's about getting attention. And I see, like, 'kikes are ruining everything'. [laughs] Good—good—good job. Should tackle field [I can't understand this sentence]. You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis! Great! Bravo!" Later: "It's just like how Mike Enoch was treated, when people found out his wife was Jewish. It's just like, he had to go dark, he had to go off the internet, because of the way these people treat him. It's like, holy shit, that's one of your own? Oh, he's married to a Jew, well, I guess, that's a bit of bad luck to be married before he was an alt-righter. Yes, he did, well, there we go. Kind of like 'Millenial was sucking a dick'. You know, it's like, it's crazy. You guys have no decorum. There's no level too low to go to." It seems clear that at least the "anti-Semitic" aspect of his comments is, in fact, deniable.
manfredo 8y ago
He used slurs, that's for certain. But it's critical to point out that the context in which they were used was to tell the Alt Right that they're behaving exactly like they see the groups they despise (blacks, Jewish people, gays etc.) through their bigoted worldview. Not to mention, your excerpt cuts off a crucial part of what he said. As other commenters pointed out, the whole part of this was: > It's not about, like, actually doing any good, it's about getting attention. And I see, like, 'kikes are ruining everything'. [laughs] Good—good—good job. Should tackle field [I can't understand this sentence]. You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis! Great! Bravo!" In case the context isn't clear, saying that they "look like you're not full of Nazi" is sarcasm. Of course subscription to belief in a global Jewish conspiracy makes a group look like they're full of Nazis. It is difficult to claim that these statements were meant as an attack on blacks and Jewish people themselves. It's pretty obvious that this banning was carried out for ideological reasons. In the past, Jack Conte stated that Patreon would only ban people for speech that was spread on their platform.[1] This was flat out ignored. It looks like much of their userbase is calling them out on the questionable justifications for the banning, too.[2] 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpbDgCj9rw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpbDgCj9rw 2. See comments on https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf Edit: changed "they're behaving exactly like the groups they despise" to "they're behaving exactly like they see the groups they despise through their bigoted worldview". Crucial mis-wording on my part, as the original version made it look I was saying said groups really do behave like how the alt-right claims.
- randallsquared 8y ago
  > It is difficult to claim that these statements were meant as an attack on blacks and Jewish people themselves. Looking through the rest of this thread, it doesn't appear to be difficult to claim that at all. Lots of people are doing so with ease. I think the issue is more about gaslighting vs honesty.
  - mikedilger 8y ago
    You're right, it's not difficult to read the quote and assume he is bigoted. In fact, given a cursory read, most people would make that assumption. But if you listen to Sargon of Akkad regularly, you'll pick up on the fact that he loves to use a partcular conversational device that may be more common in Britain than in the United States... a form of sarcastic mocking where he speaks as if he is his opponent. This is very easily taken out of context, as was done here. Out of context it looks terrible -- but it does not convey what Sargon was conveying during that livestream. I feel that the message being conveyed at the time is what matters, not the particular words used. People are getting too caught up on particular words, and missing the message conveyed.

by nkurz 8y ago

darawk 8y ago

Thanks for posting the actual content. Too often I think the actual content of the statements is left out of these things for political reasons (on both sides, depending on the context). I don't agree with all of Patreon's decisions on stuff like this, but this one seems reasonable, now that I can see the actual text.

asabjorn 8y ago
This transcript shows Patreons malintent rather than alleviate our concerns with it, because they cut out essential context and in Matt Christiansens call with Patreon they admit the real cause was that they don't like his brand [1]. I challenge you to find racism and anti-semitic content on his channel. Transcript: "exactly how you describe black people acting is the impression I get dealing with y'all", the last word should be "the alt-right". Context: How is it not clear from reading this that he is saying that you act like a negative stereotype you've created? The alt-right Sargon is arguing against are (known for being) racist, anti-Semitic, and anti-homosexual. They used said slurs in the chat accompanying the livestream. Transcript: "kikes are ruining everything" Context: calling them out on acting like nazis - "And I see, like, 'kikes are ruining everything'. [laughs] Good—good—good job. Should tackle field [I can't understand this sentence]. You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis[clearly an ironic remark]! Great! Bravo!" Context: him calling the alt-right out for turning on one of their own because he is married to a Jewish person - "It's just like how Mike Enoch was treated, when people found out his wife was Jewish. It's just like, he had to go dark, he had to go off the internet, because of the way these people treat him. It's like, holy shit, that's one of your own? Oh, he's married to a Jew, well, I guess, that's a bit of bad luck to be married before he was an alt-righter. Yes, he did, well, there we go. Kind of like 'Millenial was sucking a dick'. You know, it's like, it's crazy. You guys have no decorum. There's no level too low to go to." [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U0mQjUA0T5INc_GDkwPJ2mfhO7tbaIogisSqqxHw0hc/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U0mQjUA0T5INc_GDkwPJ2mfh...
- darawk 8y ago
  Hmm, you seem to be right. I guess even more context was necessary here.
  - asabjorn 8y ago
    NYT should have done this research instead of providing an ideologically tilted coverage. I want my newspaper back from the ideologues.

40acres 8y ago

A lot of times in these discussions folks like to abstract the actual instance that causes a controversy like this and instead change the conversation to rant about political correctness, centralization, and free speech. If you wrote what this guy wrote in an email at your job you would be fired on the spot, it doesn't matter who you worked for or what industry. No one would be able to get away with this kind of speech on a public forum because it's so outside of societies agreed realm of discourse and deliberately involves language used to justify literal genocide. Too often online the actual details of controversy are overlooked so folks can get all high minded about free speech. In all honesty it seems like a form of appeasement to me. Take a bit here, take a bit there, and eventually you end up with a gunman shooting up a synagogue and a woman being run over at a white nationalist rally.

heagrees 8y ago
Well, unfortunately for you he's agreeing with you. <random_username> was "shitposting" on the livestream chat about "kikes are ruining everything" and then he basically quoted him and said, "<random_username>, You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis! Great! Bravo!" This is a strange world that we're living in. Nowadays in our hyper politically correct world one is not even allowed to criticize people saying anti-semitic things...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

augustl 8y ago

According to Carl Benjamin himself, the comments were meant ironically. He was reacting to a chat stream, which is missing context in that video, and the chat used slurs like this. So Benjamin used the slurs back at them. Having said that, we have to assume Benjamin’s inner thoughts to know what he really meant, so I’m not arguing we should disregard it completely because of his alledged good intentions.

nharada 8y ago
I don't think you should get to walk back your shitty comments by claiming you were just joking the whole time. Based on this guy's past behavior, I don't think anyone is giving him the benefit of the doubt here either.
- manfredo 8y ago
  It is obvious that much of this speech was sarcastic. To the point that I would say that it requires willful ignorance to say otherwise. Take for instance: > And I see, like, 'kikes are ruining everything'. [laughs] Good—good—good job... You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis! Great! Bravo!" Is it your genuine belief that the statement "You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis" was meant non-sarcastically? Do you genuinely believe that Benjamin stated that statements like "kikes are ruining everything" among the Alt-Right makes the group not look like Nazis? Again, to say "yes" to these questions requires willful ignorance in my opinion.
  - nkurz 8y ago
    I agree, if not sarcasm, "kikes are ruining everything" was clearly intended as mockery. I listened only the to the first part of the video, and then grabbed quotes from the transcript. If I'd understood the context, I wouldn't have included that one as an example.
- augustl 8y ago
  Can we reliably read thoughts based on our imagining of his past thoughts? When I imagine his inner thoughts when listening to the clip, it sounds clearly like joking to me. Without any backtracking. We should not rely on imagining other people's inner thoughts... Not a very sound method.

gammateam 8y ago

If I was running a platform like Patreon I wouldnt moderate it. I cant relate to leadership teams that do this, much less passionately do it with blog posts and explanations. It is arbitrary. Its within their right whether the specific cause is something I agree with or not. I can say that I wouldnt be interested.

waterhouse 8y ago

Where the machine transcript says "exactly how you describe black people acting is the impression I get dealing with y'all", the last word should be "the alt-right". That is one piece of context: the people he's arguing against are (known for being) racist, anti-Semitic, and anti-homosexual. Further, the "kikes are ruining everything" part seems to be a paraphrasing of the alt-right: "Go and bother, like, mic.com's comment section or something. You know, they are actually getting millions of views? The thing is, they just ignore you, which is why you don't, because you're just attention-seeking. It's not about, like, actually doing any good, it's about getting attention. And I see, like, 'kikes are ruining everything'. [laughs] Good—good—good job. Should tackle field [I can't understand this sentence]. You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis! Great! Bravo!" Later: "It's just like how Mike Enoch was treated, when people found out his wife was Jewish. It's just like, he had to go dark, he had to go off the internet, because of the way these people treat him. It's like, holy shit, that's one of your own? Oh, he's married to a Jew, well, I guess, that's a bit of bad luck to be married before he was an alt-righter. Yes, he did, well, there we go. Kind of like 'Millenial was sucking a dick'. You know, it's like, it's crazy. You guys have no decorum. There's no level too low to go to." It seems clear that at least the "anti-Semitic" aspect of his comments is, in fact, deniable.

manfredo 8y ago

He used slurs, that's for certain. But it's critical to point out that the context in which they were used was to tell the Alt Right that they're behaving exactly like they see the groups they despise (blacks, Jewish people, gays etc.) through their bigoted worldview. Not to mention, your excerpt cuts off a crucial part of what he said. As other commenters pointed out, the whole part of this was: > It's not about, like, actually doing any good, it's about getting attention. And I see, like, 'kikes are ruining everything'. [laughs] Good—good—good job. Should tackle field [I can't understand this sentence]. You're making your movement look like you're not full of Nazis! Great! Bravo!" In case the context isn't clear, saying that they "look like you're not full of Nazi" is sarcasm. Of course subscription to belief in a global Jewish conspiracy makes a group look like they're full of Nazis. It is difficult to claim that these statements were meant as an attack on blacks and Jewish people themselves. It's pretty obvious that this banning was carried out for ideological reasons. In the past, Jack Conte stated that Patreon would only ban people for speech that was spread on their platform.[1] This was flat out ignored. It looks like much of their userbase is calling them out on the questionable justifications for the banning, too.[2] 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpbDgCj9rw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpbDgCj9rw 2. See comments on https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf Edit: changed "they're behaving exactly like the groups they despise" to "they're behaving exactly like they see the groups they despise through their bigoted worldview". Crucial mis-wording on my part, as the original version made it look I was saying said groups really do behave like how the alt-right claims.

randallsquared 8y ago
> It is difficult to claim that these statements were meant as an attack on blacks and Jewish people themselves. Looking through the rest of this thread, it doesn't appear to be difficult to claim that at all. Lots of people are doing so with ease. I think the issue is more about gaslighting vs honesty.
- mikedilger 8y ago
  You're right, it's not difficult to read the quote and assume he is bigoted. In fact, given a cursory read, most people would make that assumption. But if you listen to Sargon of Akkad regularly, you'll pick up on the fact that he loves to use a partcular conversational device that may be more common in Britain than in the United States... a form of sarcastic mocking where he speaks as if he is his opponent. This is very easily taken out of context, as was done here. Out of context it looks terrible -- but it does not convey what Sargon was conveying during that livestream. I feel that the message being conveyed at the time is what matters, not the particular words used. People are getting too caught up on particular words, and missing the message conveyed.