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I don’t know anything about this particular case, but it is certainly possible to be a Nazi while claiming to be anti-Nazi.

by baddox 8y ago

rabidrat 8y ago
How do we resolve this conflict then? Do we censor everyone who anyone claims is a Nazi? Do we have an official review board to vet the claims? Or maybe we decide that it's better to not censor based on ideology or rhetoric but on outcome and damage alone?
darkpuma 8y ago
I can't speak to what's really in the guy's head, but he seemed to be arguing with and insulting nazis.
- fucking_tragedy 8y ago
  > arguing with and insulting nazis. He wasn't arguing with white supremacists because he fundamentally disagreed with them. It was infighting between factions. He disagreed with a particular faction's behavior and words. He was arguing with them because they, using his words, were acting like "white n-words"[1]: > “I just can’t be bothered with people who chose to treat me like this. It’s really annoying. Like, I — . You’re acting like a bunch of n_____s, just so you know. You act like white n_____s. Exactly how you describe black people acting is the impression I get dealing with the Alt Right. I’m really, I’m just not in the mood to deal with this kind of disrespect.” > “Look, you carry on, but don’t expect me to then have a debate with one of your f__gots.…Like why would I bother?…Maybe you’re just acting like a n____r, mate? Have you considered that? Do you think white people act like this? White people are meant to be polite and respectful to one another, and you guys can’t even act like white people, it’s really amazing to me.” [1] https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf?gi=fe9f9484291a https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf?gi...
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    I'm aware of what he said. He also said: ‘I was being anti-Nazi,’ I can't get into his brain and determine if he actually opposes genocide or secretly supports it, but from what I've seen thus far it seems he carelessly uses offensive racially charged language but takes exception with those who advocate for genocide. Just so we're clear, I don't like this guy. I dislike a lot of people who fall well short of being nazis or otherwise advocating for genocide.
    - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
      Right, he agrees with white supremacists, and is happy to repeat their talking points, up until public advocacy of genocide. He's happy to say things like this[1]: > it's about gaining attention and it seems like k*kes are ruining everything The reason I'm posting this is because you mentioned that Sargon was arguing with, and insulting, white supremacists. Which, to those who are unfamiliar with Sargon, is not a claim that captures the nuance of the situation. As I said, this spat was infighting between people who are largely in agreement with the content of each other's bigotry. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ87Wf-0rZg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ87Wf-0rZg
      - darkpuma 8y ago
        As I've said numerous times elsewhere in this discussion, I find him to be an offensive and unlikable person. In this immediate thread of conversation, I was responding to the suggestion that a line should be drawn at the advocacy of genocide by pointing out that he doesn't seem to cross that line, at least as far as I've seen. I fear people are getting the wrong idea by not noticing the full context of my above comments. I hope we've now reached a mutual understanding.
        fucking_tragedy 8y ago
        > I fear people are getting the wrong idea by not noticing the full context of my above comments. Truthfully, I believe people might take issue with the fact that the distinction you're trying to make is near-meaningless. He's 90% of the way there. He just isn't using his highly-monetized platform to advocate for genocide. However, he's happy to rub shoulders with, and repeat the talking points of, people who do.
- eesmith 8y ago
  > Likewise, Benjamin has been called right wing and an alt-right sympathizer by multiple news outlets. He rejects those characterizations, calling himself a “classical liberal.” However, a recent Southern Poverty Law Center report revealed he has been a stepping stone for some white supremacists on the path to radicalization. The Right Stuff, an unapologetically racist, antisemitic blog founded by white supremacist Mike Peinovich, hosted a poll asking users who their biggest influence was in coming to the alt-right. Multiple respondents named Sargon of Akkad. And for someone who says he’s not a part of the alt-right, he’s been spending a lot of time with them lately. He’s appeared in videos with alt-right figures like Millennial Woes and Richard Spencer, giving those men a platform to reach his nearly 800,000 subscribers in the process. - https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/04/25/milo-yiannopoulos-will-speak-cal-poly-campus-already-tense-string-racist-incidents https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/04/25/milo-yiannopo...
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    While an effective indictment of his moral character, that's not him advocating genocide, which is what I was responding to. I never claimed he's a good person.
  - furgooswft13 8y ago
    It's so hard to trust anything these days, much less the SPLC... > Mike Peinovich, hosted a poll asking users who their biggest influence was in coming to the alt-right. Multiple respondents named Sargon of Akkad. I can't find the actual poll in question, but from the SPLC's own analysis, Sargon was mentioned a grand total of 3 times in a thread about what brought people to "the movement" on The Right Stuff forum. I guess that counts as "multiple". Regardless it was a very small sample size collected from an explicitly white nationalist (I assume, I'm just taking SPLC's word for that one) message board. Likely most of the people who still follow Sargon have not gone down the racist rabbit hole and just consider themselves skeptics, but hey they found 3 so... But this part is downright slanderous, or liable (not sure which, need to watch the Spiderman movie again...) > And for someone who says he’s not a part of the alt-right, he’s been spending a lot of time with them lately. He’s appeared in videos with alt-right figures like Millennial Woes and Richard Spencer, giving those men a platform to reach his nearly 800,000 subscribers in the process. While factually true the implication is clearly that he appeared with these figures to promote their ideas, not debate them, which is what actually happened. When paired with Spencer Sargon so vehemently disagreed with him that he kinda made a fool of himself, as at least Spencer remained calm throughout. I don't really care to defend Sargon and don't watch/listen to most of any of the content he produces. I do follow the tea leaves though, and from what I've gathered, while certainly anti-PC/feminist/social justice/progressive etc., he's no racist. I mean I could be wrong because as I said I've not listened to much of him, but I'm certainly not going to take the SPLC's word for it.
- pavel_lishin 8y ago
  By saying that they, and I quote Mr. Benjamin here: > "White people are meant to be polite and respectful to one another, and you guys can’t even act like white people, it’s really amazing to me." That sure sounds like someone who espouses a racial ideology to me, even if he hates other people who put on the nazi emblem.
  - PeterisP 8y ago
    The Borat movie has the protagonist sing a song "Throw the Jew down the well". Should that movie be considered antisemitic?
    - krapp 8y ago
      It is antisemitic in universe, and it's obviously a parody of antisemitic behavior. Comedy and parody typically get a pass on offensive behavior, particularly when the offender is being mocked and the language is being used as criticism (see racist and antisemitic content in Mel Brooks films, for example.) Some people probably do find Borat offensive, and Mel Brooks, regardless. But I think the mistake your comment makes is trying to find an objective definition to judge a subjective behavior, trying to determine whether people should find something antisemitic, regardless of the context. But sometimes context does matter and you can't really control who gets offended at what, or judge what offense is "legitimate" and what isn't, based on some arbitrary criteria.
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago
    > That sure sounds like someone who espouses a racial ideology to me "Sounds like", "to me". You do advocate and practice the evil you cannot even show others are guilty of. To you they "sound like" people who "might" want this or other things, so let's remove them.
- baddox 8y ago
  Yes, I won’t make any claim whether or not this guy is a Nazi. I have no idea.
britch 8y ago
Or be a different brand of extremely-hateful white supremacist while also being anti-nazi

I don’t know anything about this particular case, but it is certainly possible to be a Nazi while claiming to be anti-Nazi.

by baddox 8y ago

I don’t know anything about this particular case, but it is certainly possible to be a Nazi while claiming to be anti-Nazi.

rabidrat 8y ago

How do we resolve this conflict then? Do we censor everyone who anyone claims is a Nazi? Do we have an official review board to vet the claims? Or maybe we decide that it's better to not censor based on ideology or rhetoric but on outcome and damage alone?

darkpuma 8y ago

I can't speak to what's really in the guy's head, but he seemed to be arguing with and insulting nazis.

fucking_tragedy 8y ago
> arguing with and insulting nazis. He wasn't arguing with white supremacists because he fundamentally disagreed with them. It was infighting between factions. He disagreed with a particular faction's behavior and words. He was arguing with them because they, using his words, were acting like "white n-words"[1]: > “I just can’t be bothered with people who chose to treat me like this. It’s really annoying. Like, I — . You’re acting like a bunch of n_____s, just so you know. You act like white n_____s. Exactly how you describe black people acting is the impression I get dealing with the Alt Right. I’m really, I’m just not in the mood to deal with this kind of disrespect.” > “Look, you carry on, but don’t expect me to then have a debate with one of your f__gots.…Like why would I bother?…Maybe you’re just acting like a n____r, mate? Have you considered that? Do you think white people act like this? White people are meant to be polite and respectful to one another, and you guys can’t even act like white people, it’s really amazing to me.” [1] https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf?gi=fe9f9484291a https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf?gi...
- darkpuma 8y ago
  I'm aware of what he said. He also said: ‘I was being anti-Nazi,’ I can't get into his brain and determine if he actually opposes genocide or secretly supports it, but from what I've seen thus far it seems he carelessly uses offensive racially charged language but takes exception with those who advocate for genocide. Just so we're clear, I don't like this guy. I dislike a lot of people who fall well short of being nazis or otherwise advocating for genocide.
  - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
    Right, he agrees with white supremacists, and is happy to repeat their talking points, up until public advocacy of genocide. He's happy to say things like this[1]: > it's about gaining attention and it seems like k*kes are ruining everything The reason I'm posting this is because you mentioned that Sargon was arguing with, and insulting, white supremacists. Which, to those who are unfamiliar with Sargon, is not a claim that captures the nuance of the situation. As I said, this spat was infighting between people who are largely in agreement with the content of each other's bigotry. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ87Wf-0rZg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ87Wf-0rZg
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      As I've said numerous times elsewhere in this discussion, I find him to be an offensive and unlikable person. In this immediate thread of conversation, I was responding to the suggestion that a line should be drawn at the advocacy of genocide by pointing out that he doesn't seem to cross that line, at least as far as I've seen. I fear people are getting the wrong idea by not noticing the full context of my above comments. I hope we've now reached a mutual understanding.
      - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
        > I fear people are getting the wrong idea by not noticing the full context of my above comments. Truthfully, I believe people might take issue with the fact that the distinction you're trying to make is near-meaningless. He's 90% of the way there. He just isn't using his highly-monetized platform to advocate for genocide. However, he's happy to rub shoulders with, and repeat the talking points of, people who do.
eesmith 8y ago
> Likewise, Benjamin has been called right wing and an alt-right sympathizer by multiple news outlets. He rejects those characterizations, calling himself a “classical liberal.” However, a recent Southern Poverty Law Center report revealed he has been a stepping stone for some white supremacists on the path to radicalization. The Right Stuff, an unapologetically racist, antisemitic blog founded by white supremacist Mike Peinovich, hosted a poll asking users who their biggest influence was in coming to the alt-right. Multiple respondents named Sargon of Akkad. And for someone who says he’s not a part of the alt-right, he’s been spending a lot of time with them lately. He’s appeared in videos with alt-right figures like Millennial Woes and Richard Spencer, giving those men a platform to reach his nearly 800,000 subscribers in the process. - https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/04/25/milo-yiannopoulos-will-speak-cal-poly-campus-already-tense-string-racist-incidents https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/04/25/milo-yiannopo...
- darkpuma 8y ago
  While an effective indictment of his moral character, that's not him advocating genocide, which is what I was responding to. I never claimed he's a good person.
- furgooswft13 8y ago
  It's so hard to trust anything these days, much less the SPLC... > Mike Peinovich, hosted a poll asking users who their biggest influence was in coming to the alt-right. Multiple respondents named Sargon of Akkad. I can't find the actual poll in question, but from the SPLC's own analysis, Sargon was mentioned a grand total of 3 times in a thread about what brought people to "the movement" on The Right Stuff forum. I guess that counts as "multiple". Regardless it was a very small sample size collected from an explicitly white nationalist (I assume, I'm just taking SPLC's word for that one) message board. Likely most of the people who still follow Sargon have not gone down the racist rabbit hole and just consider themselves skeptics, but hey they found 3 so... But this part is downright slanderous, or liable (not sure which, need to watch the Spiderman movie again...) > And for someone who says he’s not a part of the alt-right, he’s been spending a lot of time with them lately. He’s appeared in videos with alt-right figures like Millennial Woes and Richard Spencer, giving those men a platform to reach his nearly 800,000 subscribers in the process. While factually true the implication is clearly that he appeared with these figures to promote their ideas, not debate them, which is what actually happened. When paired with Spencer Sargon so vehemently disagreed with him that he kinda made a fool of himself, as at least Spencer remained calm throughout. I don't really care to defend Sargon and don't watch/listen to most of any of the content he produces. I do follow the tea leaves though, and from what I've gathered, while certainly anti-PC/feminist/social justice/progressive etc., he's no racist. I mean I could be wrong because as I said I've not listened to much of him, but I'm certainly not going to take the SPLC's word for it.
pavel_lishin 8y ago
By saying that they, and I quote Mr. Benjamin here: > "White people are meant to be polite and respectful to one another, and you guys can’t even act like white people, it’s really amazing to me." That sure sounds like someone who espouses a racial ideology to me, even if he hates other people who put on the nazi emblem.
- PeterisP 8y ago
  The Borat movie has the protagonist sing a song "Throw the Jew down the well". Should that movie be considered antisemitic?
  - krapp 8y ago
    It is antisemitic in universe, and it's obviously a parody of antisemitic behavior. Comedy and parody typically get a pass on offensive behavior, particularly when the offender is being mocked and the language is being used as criticism (see racist and antisemitic content in Mel Brooks films, for example.) Some people probably do find Borat offensive, and Mel Brooks, regardless. But I think the mistake your comment makes is trying to find an objective definition to judge a subjective behavior, trying to determine whether people should find something antisemitic, regardless of the context. But sometimes context does matter and you can't really control who gets offended at what, or judge what offense is "legitimate" and what isn't, based on some arbitrary criteria.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  > That sure sounds like someone who espouses a racial ideology to me "Sounds like", "to me". You do advocate and practice the evil you cannot even show others are guilty of. To you they "sound like" people who "might" want this or other things, so let's remove them.
baddox 8y ago
Yes, I won’t make any claim whether or not this guy is a Nazi. I have no idea.

britch 8y ago

Or be a different brand of extremely-hateful white supremacist while also being anti-nazi