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>Prisoners in the US have largely been screwed into pleading guilty through a horrific bail system combined with malicious plea deal bargains Largely implies t

>Prisoners in the US have largely been screwed into pleading guilty through a horrific bail system combined with malicious plea deal bargains Largely implies that the majority are innocent. There is nothing to support that claim. I disagree with the way our bail system works, but keep in mind that the US has ranks very highly with respect to limits on pretrial detention in general. >over 90% of convictions did not go to trial That number is meaningless by itself without knowing how many of those people were actually guilty. Our ability to collect convincing evidence has drastically improved over the last century, of course guilty pleas have gone up. I agree that there are perverse incentives, unfair treatment with respect to race and class, horrible prison conditions, too many custodial sentences for non-violent crimes, and numerous other issues that we should fix immediately. >The Chinese camps are terrible in a different way, that doesn't excuse any of the inadequacies of the US prison system. No it doesn’t. Are you reading the entire thread or are you just replying to my comment in a vacuum?

lazyasciiart 8y ago
It implies nothing about their innocence, only about whether they have gone through a trial or been coerced out of doing so. The ability to hold someone in jail for years without trial and to apply coercive punitive sentences to anyone who chooses to go to trial is a much stronger factor in guilty pleas than any evidence. I did read the entire thread, but if you said something elsewhere that acknowledged that it is wrong for the US to use prisoners as slaves, I missed it.
- learc83 8y ago
  >It implies nothing about their innocence It does because you said "screwed". If someone is guilty and receives a lesser sentence in exchange for admitting guilt, you can hardly say they've been "screwed". >The ability to hold someone in jail for years without trial You can't hold someone for years without trial unless they explicitly agree to it. The way you structured you sentence "hold without trial" and "plea bargains" implies there is some other way to forgo a trial. >much stronger factor in guilty pleas than any evidence. I'm sure the plea bargain system is abused and I'd support switching to a schedule system like the UK has, but to say that it has a higher impact on guilty pleas than "any evidence." Surely you have proof for such a strong claim? >I did read the entire thread, but if you said something elsewhere that acknowledged that it is wrong for the US to use prisoners as slaves, I missed it. I did, but that's not what I was talking about.
  - lazyasciiart 8y ago
    Here is a random major news article about how plea bargaining is broken, to introduce you to the topic (it cites lots of references for you to follow up with if you don't feel like it is a complete introduction) https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/innocence-is-irrelevant/534171/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/innocen... And another one, from 2012 https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/04/misdemeanors-can-have-major-consequences-for-the-people-charged.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/04/misdemeanors-can... Here is a bail payment fund, which finds that 55% of their clients, who were in jail and would stay there because they couldn't afford bail, are not found guilty (which may mean the charges are just dropped) after their bail is paid. (I've seen similar numbers from the local bail fund I volunteer with, but don't have actual figures available to share). However, the vast majority of people do not have access to any such assistance, and 92% of people held in jail and unable to afford their bail plead guilty. Because the clients who have access to a bail fund are selected almost randomly (basically by having a court appointed lawyer who knows about the bail fund application and submits their case while the fund has available cash) we can take that as very simple evidence that many of those pleading guilty were innocent. There's definitely more detailed work available, probably cited in the articles above. http://www.thebronxfreedomfund.org/our-work/ http://www.thebronxfreedomfund.org/our-work/ > You can't hold someone for years without trial unless they explicitly agree to it. The way you structured you sentence "hold without trial" and "plea bargains" implies there is some other way to forgo a trial. This is disappointingly uninformed. The way to forgo a trial is to not hold a trial. What do you think happens, they say "excuse me sir, you can't afford bail and you say you are innocent, would you like to go home til we get around to doing something or stay here in jail?" Here are just a few cases: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/06/12/the-man-who-spent-35-years-in-prison-without-a-trial https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/06/12/the-man-who-sp... https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2018/12/28/an-anchorage-family-took-in-a-baby-and-adopted-him-now-a-court-ruling-means-they-might-have-to-give-him-up/ https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2018/12/28/an-anchorage-fami... (father was in jail for three years before charges were dismissed) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalief_Browder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalief_Browder https://pix11.com/2018/10/09/judge-dismisses-all-charges-against-pedro-hernandez-the-teen-who-became-the-face-of-bail-reform/ https://pix11.com/2018/10/09/judge-dismisses-all-charges-aga... tl:dr; the US criminal justice system today is largely administered through the process of setting bail and then expecting plea agreements, and many convicted criminals have not received what most Americans think of as 'due process'.

lazyasciiart 8y ago

It implies nothing about their innocence, only about whether they have gone through a trial or been coerced out of doing so. The ability to hold someone in jail for years without trial and to apply coercive punitive sentences to anyone who chooses to go to trial is a much stronger factor in guilty pleas than any evidence. I did read the entire thread, but if you said something elsewhere that acknowledged that it is wrong for the US to use prisoners as slaves, I missed it.

learc83 8y ago
>It implies nothing about their innocence It does because you said "screwed". If someone is guilty and receives a lesser sentence in exchange for admitting guilt, you can hardly say they've been "screwed". >The ability to hold someone in jail for years without trial You can't hold someone for years without trial unless they explicitly agree to it. The way you structured you sentence "hold without trial" and "plea bargains" implies there is some other way to forgo a trial. >much stronger factor in guilty pleas than any evidence. I'm sure the plea bargain system is abused and I'd support switching to a schedule system like the UK has, but to say that it has a higher impact on guilty pleas than "any evidence." Surely you have proof for such a strong claim? >I did read the entire thread, but if you said something elsewhere that acknowledged that it is wrong for the US to use prisoners as slaves, I missed it. I did, but that's not what I was talking about.
- lazyasciiart 8y ago
  Here is a random major news article about how plea bargaining is broken, to introduce you to the topic (it cites lots of references for you to follow up with if you don't feel like it is a complete introduction) https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/innocence-is-irrelevant/534171/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/innocen... And another one, from 2012 https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/04/misdemeanors-can-have-major-consequences-for-the-people-charged.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/04/misdemeanors-can... Here is a bail payment fund, which finds that 55% of their clients, who were in jail and would stay there because they couldn't afford bail, are not found guilty (which may mean the charges are just dropped) after their bail is paid. (I've seen similar numbers from the local bail fund I volunteer with, but don't have actual figures available to share). However, the vast majority of people do not have access to any such assistance, and 92% of people held in jail and unable to afford their bail plead guilty. Because the clients who have access to a bail fund are selected almost randomly (basically by having a court appointed lawyer who knows about the bail fund application and submits their case while the fund has available cash) we can take that as very simple evidence that many of those pleading guilty were innocent. There's definitely more detailed work available, probably cited in the articles above. http://www.thebronxfreedomfund.org/our-work/ http://www.thebronxfreedomfund.org/our-work/ > You can't hold someone for years without trial unless they explicitly agree to it. The way you structured you sentence "hold without trial" and "plea bargains" implies there is some other way to forgo a trial. This is disappointingly uninformed. The way to forgo a trial is to not hold a trial. What do you think happens, they say "excuse me sir, you can't afford bail and you say you are innocent, would you like to go home til we get around to doing something or stay here in jail?" Here are just a few cases: https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/06/12/the-man-who-spent-35-years-in-prison-without-a-trial https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/06/12/the-man-who-sp... https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2018/12/28/an-anchorage-family-took-in-a-baby-and-adopted-him-now-a-court-ruling-means-they-might-have-to-give-him-up/ https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2018/12/28/an-anchorage-fami... (father was in jail for three years before charges were dismissed) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalief_Browder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalief_Browder https://pix11.com/2018/10/09/judge-dismisses-all-charges-against-pedro-hernandez-the-teen-who-became-the-face-of-bail-reform/ https://pix11.com/2018/10/09/judge-dismisses-all-charges-aga... tl:dr; the US criminal justice system today is largely administered through the process of setting bail and then expecting plea agreements, and many convicted criminals have not received what most Americans think of as 'due process'.