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I'm completely against using prison labor for profit, and there are inequalities in the US system...but prisoners in the US have had due process. Despite our pr

I'm completely against using prison labor for profit, and there are inequalities in the US system...but prisoners in the US have had due process. Despite our problems, the protections for the accused in the US are among the best in the world. To pretend that there isn't an enormous difference between labor camps in China and prison labor in the US is absolutely absurd.

StavrosK 8y ago
Your argument is that, because they had a fair trial and were found guilty, it is ethical to force them to work without compensation? > Over the years, the courts have held that inmates may be required to work and are not protected by the constitutional prohibition against involuntary servitude. They have also consistently held that inmates have no constitutional right to compensation and that inmates are paid by the ‘grace of the state.” https://www.gao.gov/assets/220/217999.pdf https://www.gao.gov/assets/220/217999.pdf
- learc83 8y ago
  >Your argument is that, because they had a fair trial and were found guilty, it is ethical to force them to work without compensation? Yes to some extent. I think forcing prisoners to cook their own meals, clean up after themselves etc... is fine. I draw the line at contracting out prisoners for money, or selling products that prisoners make--not because I think requiring work as a part of fairly meted punishment is inherently wrong, but because I believe it creates perverse incentives. My primary argument is that requiring work as a part of punishment for an offense for which they were convicted at a fair trial is not remotely comparable to forcing hundreds of thousands of unconvicted political prisoners into labor camps.
lazyasciiart 8y ago
Prisoners in the US have largely been screwed into pleading guilty through a horrific bail system combined with malicious plea deal bargains (over 90% of convictions did not go to trial - https://theoutline.com/post/2066/most-criminal-cases-end-in-plea-bargains-not-trials https://theoutline.com/post/2066/most-criminal-cases-end-in-...). The Chinese camps are terrible in a different way, that doesn't excuse any of the inadequacies of the US prison system.
- learc83 8y ago
  >Prisoners in the US have largely been screwed into pleading guilty through a horrific bail system combined with malicious plea deal bargains Largely implies that the majority are innocent. There is nothing to support that claim. I disagree with the way our bail system works, but keep in mind that the US has ranks very highly with respect to limits on pretrial detention in general. >over 90% of convictions did not go to trial That number is meaningless by itself without knowing how many of those people were actually guilty. Our ability to collect convincing evidence has drastically improved over the last century, of course guilty pleas have gone up. I agree that there are perverse incentives, unfair treatment with respect to race and class, horrible prison conditions, too many custodial sentences for non-violent crimes, and numerous other issues that we should fix immediately. >The Chinese camps are terrible in a different way, that doesn't excuse any of the inadequacies of the US prison system. No it doesn’t. Are you reading the entire thread or are you just replying to my comment in a vacuum?
  - lazyasciiart 8y ago
    It implies nothing about their innocence, only about whether they have gone through a trial or been coerced out of doing so. The ability to hold someone in jail for years without trial and to apply coercive punitive sentences to anyone who chooses to go to trial is a much stronger factor in guilty pleas than any evidence. I did read the entire thread, but if you said something elsewhere that acknowledged that it is wrong for the US to use prisoners as slaves, I missed it.
    - learc83 8y ago
      >It implies nothing about their innocence It does because you said "screwed". If someone is guilty and receives a lesser sentence in exchange for admitting guilt, you can hardly say they've been "screwed". >The ability to hold someone in jail for years without trial You can't hold someone for years without trial unless they explicitly agree to it. The way you structured you sentence "hold without trial" and "plea bargains" implies there is some other way to forgo a trial. >much stronger factor in guilty pleas than any evidence. I'm sure the plea bargain system is abused and I'd support switching to a schedule system like the UK has, but to say that it has a higher impact on guilty pleas than "any evidence." Surely you have proof for such a strong claim? >I did read the entire thread, but if you said something elsewhere that acknowledged that it is wrong for the US to use prisoners as slaves, I missed it. I did, but that's not what I was talking about.

StavrosK 8y ago

Your argument is that, because they had a fair trial and were found guilty, it is ethical to force them to work without compensation? > Over the years, the courts have held that inmates may be required to work and are not protected by the constitutional prohibition against involuntary servitude. They have also consistently held that inmates have no constitutional right to compensation and that inmates are paid by the ‘grace of the state.” https://www.gao.gov/assets/220/217999.pdf https://www.gao.gov/assets/220/217999.pdf

learc83 8y ago
>Your argument is that, because they had a fair trial and were found guilty, it is ethical to force them to work without compensation? Yes to some extent. I think forcing prisoners to cook their own meals, clean up after themselves etc... is fine. I draw the line at contracting out prisoners for money, or selling products that prisoners make--not because I think requiring work as a part of fairly meted punishment is inherently wrong, but because I believe it creates perverse incentives. My primary argument is that requiring work as a part of punishment for an offense for which they were convicted at a fair trial is not remotely comparable to forcing hundreds of thousands of unconvicted political prisoners into labor camps.

lazyasciiart 8y ago

Prisoners in the US have largely been screwed into pleading guilty through a horrific bail system combined with malicious plea deal bargains (over 90% of convictions did not go to trial - https://theoutline.com/post/2066/most-criminal-cases-end-in-plea-bargains-not-trials https://theoutline.com/post/2066/most-criminal-cases-end-in-...). The Chinese camps are terrible in a different way, that doesn't excuse any of the inadequacies of the US prison system.

learc83 8y ago
>Prisoners in the US have largely been screwed into pleading guilty through a horrific bail system combined with malicious plea deal bargains Largely implies that the majority are innocent. There is nothing to support that claim. I disagree with the way our bail system works, but keep in mind that the US has ranks very highly with respect to limits on pretrial detention in general. >over 90% of convictions did not go to trial That number is meaningless by itself without knowing how many of those people were actually guilty. Our ability to collect convincing evidence has drastically improved over the last century, of course guilty pleas have gone up. I agree that there are perverse incentives, unfair treatment with respect to race and class, horrible prison conditions, too many custodial sentences for non-violent crimes, and numerous other issues that we should fix immediately. >The Chinese camps are terrible in a different way, that doesn't excuse any of the inadequacies of the US prison system. No it doesn’t. Are you reading the entire thread or are you just replying to my comment in a vacuum?
- lazyasciiart 8y ago
  It implies nothing about their innocence, only about whether they have gone through a trial or been coerced out of doing so. The ability to hold someone in jail for years without trial and to apply coercive punitive sentences to anyone who chooses to go to trial is a much stronger factor in guilty pleas than any evidence. I did read the entire thread, but if you said something elsewhere that acknowledged that it is wrong for the US to use prisoners as slaves, I missed it.
  - learc83 8y ago
    >It implies nothing about their innocence It does because you said "screwed". If someone is guilty and receives a lesser sentence in exchange for admitting guilt, you can hardly say they've been "screwed". >The ability to hold someone in jail for years without trial You can't hold someone for years without trial unless they explicitly agree to it. The way you structured you sentence "hold without trial" and "plea bargains" implies there is some other way to forgo a trial. >much stronger factor in guilty pleas than any evidence. I'm sure the plea bargain system is abused and I'd support switching to a schedule system like the UK has, but to say that it has a higher impact on guilty pleas than "any evidence." Surely you have proof for such a strong claim? >I did read the entire thread, but if you said something elsewhere that acknowledged that it is wrong for the US to use prisoners as slaves, I missed it. I did, but that's not what I was talking about.