4 ms·

No one takes money from the IMF unless they are so screwed that they have no other options. The reason they have no one willing to lend to them is that their go

No one takes money from the IMF unless they are so screwed that they have no other options. The reason they have no one willing to lend to them is that their government has enacted policies that destroyed their economy and the IMF requires concrete changes to get them back on the right track. The alternative to taking an IMF loan is so bad (collapse of country) that they take it. It isn’t the IMF’s fault, it’s what happens when those in power loot their country via corruption, huge bloated public sectors, unsustainable pensions, crony capitalism, etc.

raprp 8y ago
How can this be downvoted? Did Argentina get trapped in debt with IMF because a meteor hit Buenos Aires? Did a tsunami hit Athens? These countries burned through their reserves with no responsibility at all, reserves which were hard earned money from the population, and people demonize the IMF alone?
- seibelj 8y ago
  It has become popular on the left to blame the IMF for a country’s problems, when the IMF is the last resort for a country that has shot itself in the foot. Some people can’t handle reality when it conflicts with their fantasy.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - AsyncAwait 8y ago
    As someone on 'the left', the criticism are both of the IMF and the local governments. Pretending however that the IMF does not play a role in many 'misfortunes' is laughable. It is also ignorant to pretend that because Africa has been more or less 'independent' for over 40 years, that the history of colonialism should be discounted as having no effect on the present anymore. This does not mean that the countries themselves should bear no responsibility and few are making that claim.
    - simplecomplex 8y ago
      And what's the left's proposed solution? More forgiving terms or no money at all available?
      - AsyncAwait 8y ago
        Since 'the left' isn't a monolithic entity, it's hard to describe a singular solution that we all agree on, or even name everything off the top of my head, but in my view, a good start would be to stop overthrowing people that do not open markets sufficiently to our interests, try to limit trade in USD/EUR etc. or otherwise do not align with 'our' interests. More favorable terms would also certainly help, so would actually listening to the local populace, instead of handing money to a corrupt central government. Corruption itself mostly stems from lack of sufficient resources and progression for everybody, which is not helped by pouring more money into the very machine powering it. NGOs can also be incredibly corrupt and wasteful, see Haiti. Instead of sending in money, fund concrete projects to build infrastructure and provide good paying jobs by having locals build it. Work with local communities to set up small businesses and help them set up networks to export their goods etc. There's plenty of failures to study from and some successes that need to be expanded. The big problems with such projects tends to be that even when the "grand goal" is good, if you will, locals are not consulted, farmers are displaced etc. which only breeds hatred towards the people telling themselves they're helping. Stop being arrogant and thinking that we "know better" than the people who actually live in the area. Might be a good starting point. What is the right's solution? Repeat what was done till now and expect a different result, do not participate at all...?
        seibelj 8y ago
        > Stop being arrogant and thinking that we "know better" than the people who actually live in the area. I believe this is the problem - the locals that have ran their country into the ground have proven that they do not how to manage their own country. This is why the market, which expects to be paid back, will no longer fund their mismanagement. You have an extremely warped view of foreign countries that are forced to take loans from the IMF - these countries have economies that are collapsing.
- icebraining 8y ago
  people demonize the IMF alone? Nobody demonizes the IMF alone, there's plenty of internal criticism inside the countries "helped" by the IMF.
monocasa 8y ago
> The reason they have no one willing to lend to them is that their government has enacted policies that destroyed their economy and the IMF requires concrete changes to get them back on the right track. I blame the IMF beacuse its austerity numbers were based on a non peer reviewed paper with arthritic errors that simply said what they wanted to hear. That bullshit put the nail in the coffins of several countries.

raprp 8y ago

How can this be downvoted? Did Argentina get trapped in debt with IMF because a meteor hit Buenos Aires? Did a tsunami hit Athens? These countries burned through their reserves with no responsibility at all, reserves which were hard earned money from the population, and people demonize the IMF alone?

seibelj 8y ago
It has become popular on the left to blame the IMF for a country’s problems, when the IMF is the last resort for a country that has shot itself in the foot. Some people can’t handle reality when it conflicts with their fantasy.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- AsyncAwait 8y ago
  As someone on 'the left', the criticism are both of the IMF and the local governments. Pretending however that the IMF does not play a role in many 'misfortunes' is laughable. It is also ignorant to pretend that because Africa has been more or less 'independent' for over 40 years, that the history of colonialism should be discounted as having no effect on the present anymore. This does not mean that the countries themselves should bear no responsibility and few are making that claim.
  - simplecomplex 8y ago
    And what's the left's proposed solution? More forgiving terms or no money at all available?
    - AsyncAwait 8y ago
      Since 'the left' isn't a monolithic entity, it's hard to describe a singular solution that we all agree on, or even name everything off the top of my head, but in my view, a good start would be to stop overthrowing people that do not open markets sufficiently to our interests, try to limit trade in USD/EUR etc. or otherwise do not align with 'our' interests. More favorable terms would also certainly help, so would actually listening to the local populace, instead of handing money to a corrupt central government. Corruption itself mostly stems from lack of sufficient resources and progression for everybody, which is not helped by pouring more money into the very machine powering it. NGOs can also be incredibly corrupt and wasteful, see Haiti. Instead of sending in money, fund concrete projects to build infrastructure and provide good paying jobs by having locals build it. Work with local communities to set up small businesses and help them set up networks to export their goods etc. There's plenty of failures to study from and some successes that need to be expanded. The big problems with such projects tends to be that even when the "grand goal" is good, if you will, locals are not consulted, farmers are displaced etc. which only breeds hatred towards the people telling themselves they're helping. Stop being arrogant and thinking that we "know better" than the people who actually live in the area. Might be a good starting point. What is the right's solution? Repeat what was done till now and expect a different result, do not participate at all...?
      - seibelj 8y ago
        > Stop being arrogant and thinking that we "know better" than the people who actually live in the area. I believe this is the problem - the locals that have ran their country into the ground have proven that they do not how to manage their own country. This is why the market, which expects to be paid back, will no longer fund their mismanagement. You have an extremely warped view of foreign countries that are forced to take loans from the IMF - these countries have economies that are collapsing.
icebraining 8y ago
people demonize the IMF alone? Nobody demonizes the IMF alone, there's plenty of internal criticism inside the countries "helped" by the IMF.

monocasa 8y ago

> The reason they have no one willing to lend to them is that their government has enacted policies that destroyed their economy and the IMF requires concrete changes to get them back on the right track. I blame the IMF beacuse its austerity numbers were based on a non peer reviewed paper with arthritic errors that simply said what they wanted to hear. That bullshit put the nail in the coffins of several countries.