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I'm an African myself, but while Chinese model is different from the aid model we are familiar with, it's helping solve so many problems that we had no alternat

I'm an African myself, but while Chinese model is different from the aid model we are familiar with, it's helping solve so many problems that we had no alternatives for. China is willing to come in with loans without political strings attached. Yes, there are collaterals but Africa has its own negotiators too, and we know the deal we get is much better than any other country or institution would be willing to give.

DanielBMarkham 8y ago
I truly wish you guys the best. I'm all for any kind of new approach to economic development. I would caution your use of "without political strings attached" Trust me, anything at that scale? It has political strings attached. What concerns me -- and why I commented -- is the perception that there isn't. Large groups of people working together always do things for political reasons. Not altruism, morals, or some other attribute an individual might have. Large groups of people working together are not just some huge version of a person. I don't know the details here, and I think even if I did a lot of it is going to have to shake out over the next few years anyway. Best of luck! I sure hope this doesn't end up screwing over folks in Africa yet again under the guise (and perhaps honest mission) of helping them. By the way, the same goes for folks who oppose such efforts. Groups like spinning things as if they are all of one mind, but these are complex decisions with many groups and levels of politics to consider, not good guys versus bad guys. That kind of stuff is just the pablum they sell to the folks back home.
NicoJuicy 8y ago
No political strings attached? You mean, they just takeover and don't need political strings? They benefit far more, their own workers do 80% of the work and nothing is helping the local economy. The loans also have to be paid back to China ( because they lend the money). This is a very good way to create growth on the shoulder of others.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  Better infrastructure doesn't help the local economy?
  - dragandj 8y ago
    Not so much if the local economy is not developed enough to be able to utilize it.
    - NicoJuicy 8y ago
      Short answer, but to the point. These prestigious projects go broke without customers. The Chinese just gain control of the "strategic" location.
  - NicoJuicy 8y ago
    Building infrastructure is the way to help everyone gaining fortune again and the economy. It's not just the roads, but everyone involved ( workers, companies, ...). But if you don't let the locals do it, you reduce the improvement a lot for the local economy. Not to mention, that the infrastructure that is build, is mostly to guide resources away from Africa instead of improving the economy. And the strategic airports that are build with the Chinese help, are strategicly located. But there is no demand for it => It goes broke without enough income. In the contract, the Chinese can gain the lease for 100 years. So the countries loaned money for a "prestigious project", eg. a strategic airport. It's build with Chinese people and chinese companies. The loan has to be repaid to the Chinese, but paid by the countries. So yes, these "infrastructure" projects don't help the local economy and the countries take all the risk. China has got the money ( or infrastructure in possession), the workers employed and the influence of the Chinese companies in Africa.
sah2ed 8y ago
To further butress DanielBMarkham's excellent comment below, here is a HN discussion [0] from early this year where China gave Africa a no strings attached helping hand that turned out to be "Greek gift" where they snoop on all communications. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16272033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16272033
- SubiculumCode 8y ago
  Let those countries then talk about Burma and declare Taiwan a free and democratic State.

DanielBMarkham 8y ago

I truly wish you guys the best. I'm all for any kind of new approach to economic development. I would caution your use of "without political strings attached" Trust me, anything at that scale? It has political strings attached. What concerns me -- and why I commented -- is the perception that there isn't. Large groups of people working together always do things for political reasons. Not altruism, morals, or some other attribute an individual might have. Large groups of people working together are not just some huge version of a person. I don't know the details here, and I think even if I did a lot of it is going to have to shake out over the next few years anyway. Best of luck! I sure hope this doesn't end up screwing over folks in Africa yet again under the guise (and perhaps honest mission) of helping them. By the way, the same goes for folks who oppose such efforts. Groups like spinning things as if they are all of one mind, but these are complex decisions with many groups and levels of politics to consider, not good guys versus bad guys. That kind of stuff is just the pablum they sell to the folks back home.

NicoJuicy 8y ago

No political strings attached? You mean, they just takeover and don't need political strings? They benefit far more, their own workers do 80% of the work and nothing is helping the local economy. The loans also have to be paid back to China ( because they lend the money). This is a very good way to create growth on the shoulder of others.

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
Better infrastructure doesn't help the local economy?
- dragandj 8y ago
  Not so much if the local economy is not developed enough to be able to utilize it.
  - NicoJuicy 8y ago
    Short answer, but to the point. These prestigious projects go broke without customers. The Chinese just gain control of the "strategic" location.
- NicoJuicy 8y ago
  Building infrastructure is the way to help everyone gaining fortune again and the economy. It's not just the roads, but everyone involved ( workers, companies, ...). But if you don't let the locals do it, you reduce the improvement a lot for the local economy. Not to mention, that the infrastructure that is build, is mostly to guide resources away from Africa instead of improving the economy. And the strategic airports that are build with the Chinese help, are strategicly located. But there is no demand for it => It goes broke without enough income. In the contract, the Chinese can gain the lease for 100 years. So the countries loaned money for a "prestigious project", eg. a strategic airport. It's build with Chinese people and chinese companies. The loan has to be repaid to the Chinese, but paid by the countries. So yes, these "infrastructure" projects don't help the local economy and the countries take all the risk. China has got the money ( or infrastructure in possession), the workers employed and the influence of the Chinese companies in Africa.

sah2ed 8y ago

To further butress DanielBMarkham's excellent comment below, here is a HN discussion [0] from early this year where China gave Africa a no strings attached helping hand that turned out to be "Greek gift" where they snoop on all communications. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16272033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16272033

SubiculumCode 8y ago
Let those countries then talk about Burma and declare Taiwan a free and democratic State.