8 ms·

It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden

59 points by daegloe 8y ago

mrob 8y ago
I don't think "golden age" implies no possibility of improvement. It could improve to a "platinum age", which is popularly thought of as more valuable that gold (even though it currently isn't). This is especially relevant to music, because RIAA sales certifications are well known, and a "platinum album" has sold more than a "gold album". Or if you want something based on real word metal prices, it could be a "rhodium age".
21 8y ago
Related, from another article I've read recently: > Jazz clubs didn’t have “no talking” rules back when jazz was a black popular music. (Charles Mingus and Nina Simone complained bitterly and often about people talking during their sets.) The sacralization/classicalization of jazz only dates back to the 1980s, when, for better or for worse, it became an academic music. On the one hand, it’s nice to go to a jazz concert and be able to hear everything. On the other hand, the music is not exactly the dynamic creative force it was back when it was being played while people smoked, drank and danced.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Sounds like my impression from Jazz concerts I have been to. They often felt sterile and emotionless to me. I like it when musicians feed off their audience's emotions and don't just do their thing.
  - te_chris 8y ago
    It’s coming back in London. Check out artists associated with Total Refreshment Centre.
  - analog31 8y ago
    Come to the Midwest. I started learning jazz in the late 70s, and have been performing in public for about 25 years. About half of the players I work with have music degrees, the rest are dedicated amateurs like myself. The multiple comments I'm reading here, about jazz being rigid, traditionalist, and stuffy, are foreign to me. Even many of the lower profile performances of classical and chamber music are pretty laid back. It could be that the atmosphere of jazz performances reflects the local culture, rather than being driven by jazz itself.
- walshemj 8y ago
  Jazz has always bee like that back in the 50's there are incidences of actual fights at trad Jazz gigs, over arcane arguments over which sort of Bass should be used - this is Metal Vs String not a Double Bass vs an Electric Bass (which was beyond the pale)
  - gvurrdon 8y ago
    Luckily, in the 1990s I could happily play electric bass (upright or guitar) in jazz gigs without receiving complaints. A shame it took so long to catch on - I think that the Fender Jazz was a great invention, and actually works well for jazz.
- scrooched_moose 8y ago
  I'd be curious to see that article and what "clubs" the author is going to. I've been to plenty of clubs in multiple cities where it's still exactly like that. You talk, eat, and drink while the music plays in the background. The only "no talking" Jazz events I've been to are true concerts with generally hefty ticket prices.
  - techopoly 8y ago
    I would argue that jazz is largely viewed as background music now. People go to a jazz club to...talk. If they wanted to listen to the music they'd go to a rock concert. Edit: Another thought, maybe a large segment of modern jazz is uninspired renditions of the old greats, and maybe that's why people don't give it much credence? I don't go to a lot of jazz clubs, so I can't really say. Perhaps more people would listen to modern jazz if it was so groundbreaking it knocked them off their feet...unfortunately that honor seems to go to rock, hip-hop, electronica, and such these days.
  - psalminen 8y ago
    This. Every jazz club I've been to (save for the most prestigious like Blue Note) are lively events full of socializing.
  - klez 8y ago
    It's a small quote from this [0] article. [0] http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2018/white-people-with-acoustic-instruments-covering-rap-songs/ http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2018/white-people-with-acoustic-...
- selimthegrim 8y ago
  Keith Jarrett is pretty famous for throwing tantrums over audience noises.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    That's his classical roots showing.
aphextron 8y ago
I have a real problem with modern jazz. It's always trying to be something that it really isn't. It's just these people who grew up listening to the greats from the 20th century and imitating that sound. There's zero invention to it. Anything since the 70s and rise of smooth jazz is just rehashed mockery of a thing that once was. "Jazz" was something that happened at a specific time and place, with a specific group of people, and then it was over. It's not some transcendental overarching genre in itself to be explored. I'm far more interested now in hearing whatever some weird new electronic artist is coming up with than listening to someone perform Giant Steps note-for-note, or do a perfect Ella Fitzgerald.
- brian-armstrong 8y ago
  Sorry, what? Are you sure you aren't making claims based on your particular experience with it? What about new types of jazz like Dilla jazz?
  - coldtea 8y ago
    What about them? They're basically a subgenre of hip hop, for one.
    - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
      But they're a new genre, a new "sound". It doesn't need to be completely unique to be a new or novel experience. Jazz was derivative of earlier genres, and those genres deriative of those before.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >But they're a new genre, a new "sound". The parent didn't ask for a new sound in abstract. There have been tons of new genres (sounds), especially in electronic music since the 80s. They ask for a new development in jazz. A hip-hop genre might be a new sound, but it's not a jazz development.
    - deleted 8y ago
viburnum 8y ago
In its time jazz was full of harmonic and rhythmic innovations. People played chords and melodies "wrong" and it felt dangerous and exciting. Jazz was always about pushing boundaries, but once you got to free jazz in the 1960s there was nowhere left to go, and the only thing left was to turn it into classical music. All that energy is has been in hip hop for decades now. Oh yeah, and people want to dance too.
- stochastic_monk 8y ago
  Jazz’s fate mirrors blues in that it’s reached its mature state and now symbiotic relationships with other genres are where innovation happens. David Bowie’s Blackstar, Dillinger Escape Plan’s Jazz-infused math rock hardcore, and Norwegian Shining’s Avant-garde Blackjazz sui generis would be prime examples of this kind of achievement.
samangan 8y ago
To shine a different light here in these comments, I think the recent resurgence of jazz is interesting and very special. A lot of different forces combined to make this happen, the most obvious being the trend of popular music towards hip hop and people discovering their roots. But I think the resurrection of vinyl had a large role to play here as well. Vinyl has blown up in the past few years and many young people are quickly realizing that some of the best recorded/mastered LPs were classic Jazz and Soul albums from the past century. This is a gateway drug into modern Jazz and also blends nicely with music nerds interested in obscure samples from their favorite modern artists. Also, I dont see the point in being pedantic about genre labels, but hey, its hacker news.
mrleiter 8y ago
As it is always the case, determining when something is a paradigm shift or something truly great cannot be told instantly. It takes time. As a jazzdrummer myself (professional training and self-taught), I like what bevinahally said: that Jazz is not Mozart and Beethoven, and it doesn't have to be reproduced perfectly. Jazz is alive and sparkling. Especially London is a growing scene. In my view, this time will be viewed as a paradigm shift, because you can see a lot of young and really talented players mixing up what is known as jazz with influences from techno and hip-hop (huh, what a fun twist). Yes, if you are looking for jazz as you are taught in school (say Coltrane), that still exists, but it's to me boring. Has been done. I want to give you some examples to listen to, and you will hear what I mean. The drums use ghost notes quite heavily, 7th chords are turned into 11th and 13th chords, there are less changes in tonality. Rhythm is more straight, tighter. It get's you going! Yussef Kamaal - Calligraphy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g826StJhLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g826StJhLk) Yussef Dayes X Alfa Mist - Love Is The Message (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVtIPeYIeQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVtIPeYIeQ) Nihilism Live @jazzrefreshed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTlZEv9V35o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTlZEv9V35o) Ezra Collective - Enter The Jungle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGkZM6wjIwk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGkZM6wjIwk) Richard Spaven - The Self feat. Jordan Rakei (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YattHO96UzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YattHO96UzI) Enjoy :) jazz is for everyone
- zwegner 8y ago
  Thanks for these recommendations. I already really like Yussef Kamaal, and from a short sampling these other artists will definitely make it into my rotation. I feel I should also point out that Coltrane went much further than the sort of jazz that would be considered "academic" in his later years, as he got freer and more avant-garde. I particularly like the last year or so of his classic quartet (1965), as they stretched musical forms into very intense, dissonant directions, while still maintaining a masterful group cohesion. Take this performance[1] of My Favorite Things, for example, and compare it to the version released four years before--it's worlds apart. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWYWgda5f0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWYWgda5f0I
  - 8y ago
stevenkovar 8y ago
Without commenting on the current state of jazz, I'll contribute several of my favorite modern artists: The loud-and-completely-aware-of-that-fact Soil & "Pimp" Sessions from Japan. The name makes no sense, but that's half the image. - AIE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWHP_mGPlJk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWHP_mGPlJk - Summer Goddess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQMgXPFzdg8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQMgXPFzdg8 Christian Scott aTunde Adjuah, with more of a soulful and at some times political approach. - Twin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktU_X7CDaBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktU_X7CDaBM - Live session: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OslN5mxWZi8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OslN5mxWZi8

59 points by daegloe 8y ago

mrob 8y ago

I don't think "golden age" implies no possibility of improvement. It could improve to a "platinum age", which is popularly thought of as more valuable that gold (even though it currently isn't). This is especially relevant to music, because RIAA sales certifications are well known, and a "platinum album" has sold more than a "gold album". Or if you want something based on real word metal prices, it could be a "rhodium age".

21 8y ago

Related, from another article I've read recently: > Jazz clubs didn’t have “no talking” rules back when jazz was a black popular music. (Charles Mingus and Nina Simone complained bitterly and often about people talking during their sets.) The sacralization/classicalization of jazz only dates back to the 1980s, when, for better or for worse, it became an academic music. On the one hand, it’s nice to go to a jazz concert and be able to hear everything. On the other hand, the music is not exactly the dynamic creative force it was back when it was being played while people smoked, drank and danced.

maxxxxx 8y ago
Sounds like my impression from Jazz concerts I have been to. They often felt sterile and emotionless to me. I like it when musicians feed off their audience's emotions and don't just do their thing.
- te_chris 8y ago
  It’s coming back in London. Check out artists associated with Total Refreshment Centre.
- analog31 8y ago
  Come to the Midwest. I started learning jazz in the late 70s, and have been performing in public for about 25 years. About half of the players I work with have music degrees, the rest are dedicated amateurs like myself. The multiple comments I'm reading here, about jazz being rigid, traditionalist, and stuffy, are foreign to me. Even many of the lower profile performances of classical and chamber music are pretty laid back. It could be that the atmosphere of jazz performances reflects the local culture, rather than being driven by jazz itself.
walshemj 8y ago
Jazz has always bee like that back in the 50's there are incidences of actual fights at trad Jazz gigs, over arcane arguments over which sort of Bass should be used - this is Metal Vs String not a Double Bass vs an Electric Bass (which was beyond the pale)
- gvurrdon 8y ago
  Luckily, in the 1990s I could happily play electric bass (upright or guitar) in jazz gigs without receiving complaints. A shame it took so long to catch on - I think that the Fender Jazz was a great invention, and actually works well for jazz.
scrooched_moose 8y ago
I'd be curious to see that article and what "clubs" the author is going to. I've been to plenty of clubs in multiple cities where it's still exactly like that. You talk, eat, and drink while the music plays in the background. The only "no talking" Jazz events I've been to are true concerts with generally hefty ticket prices.
- techopoly 8y ago
  I would argue that jazz is largely viewed as background music now. People go to a jazz club to...talk. If they wanted to listen to the music they'd go to a rock concert. Edit: Another thought, maybe a large segment of modern jazz is uninspired renditions of the old greats, and maybe that's why people don't give it much credence? I don't go to a lot of jazz clubs, so I can't really say. Perhaps more people would listen to modern jazz if it was so groundbreaking it knocked them off their feet...unfortunately that honor seems to go to rock, hip-hop, electronica, and such these days.
- psalminen 8y ago
  This. Every jazz club I've been to (save for the most prestigious like Blue Note) are lively events full of socializing.
- klez 8y ago
  It's a small quote from this [0] article. [0] http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2018/white-people-with-acoustic-instruments-covering-rap-songs/ http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2018/white-people-with-acoustic-...
selimthegrim 8y ago
Keith Jarrett is pretty famous for throwing tantrums over audience noises.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  That's his classical roots showing.

aphextron 8y ago

I have a real problem with modern jazz. It's always trying to be something that it really isn't. It's just these people who grew up listening to the greats from the 20th century and imitating that sound. There's zero invention to it. Anything since the 70s and rise of smooth jazz is just rehashed mockery of a thing that once was. "Jazz" was something that happened at a specific time and place, with a specific group of people, and then it was over. It's not some transcendental overarching genre in itself to be explored. I'm far more interested now in hearing whatever some weird new electronic artist is coming up with than listening to someone perform Giant Steps note-for-note, or do a perfect Ella Fitzgerald.

brian-armstrong 8y ago
Sorry, what? Are you sure you aren't making claims based on your particular experience with it? What about new types of jazz like Dilla jazz?
- coldtea 8y ago
  What about them? They're basically a subgenre of hip hop, for one.
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    But they're a new genre, a new "sound". It doesn't need to be completely unique to be a new or novel experience. Jazz was derivative of earlier genres, and those genres deriative of those before.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >But they're a new genre, a new "sound". The parent didn't ask for a new sound in abstract. There have been tons of new genres (sounds), especially in electronic music since the 80s. They ask for a new development in jazz. A hip-hop genre might be a new sound, but it's not a jazz development.
  - deleted 8y ago

viburnum 8y ago

In its time jazz was full of harmonic and rhythmic innovations. People played chords and melodies "wrong" and it felt dangerous and exciting. Jazz was always about pushing boundaries, but once you got to free jazz in the 1960s there was nowhere left to go, and the only thing left was to turn it into classical music. All that energy is has been in hip hop for decades now. Oh yeah, and people want to dance too.

stochastic_monk 8y ago
Jazz’s fate mirrors blues in that it’s reached its mature state and now symbiotic relationships with other genres are where innovation happens. David Bowie’s Blackstar, Dillinger Escape Plan’s Jazz-infused math rock hardcore, and Norwegian Shining’s Avant-garde Blackjazz sui generis would be prime examples of this kind of achievement.

samangan 8y ago

To shine a different light here in these comments, I think the recent resurgence of jazz is interesting and very special. A lot of different forces combined to make this happen, the most obvious being the trend of popular music towards hip hop and people discovering their roots. But I think the resurrection of vinyl had a large role to play here as well. Vinyl has blown up in the past few years and many young people are quickly realizing that some of the best recorded/mastered LPs were classic Jazz and Soul albums from the past century. This is a gateway drug into modern Jazz and also blends nicely with music nerds interested in obscure samples from their favorite modern artists. Also, I dont see the point in being pedantic about genre labels, but hey, its hacker news.

mrleiter 8y ago

As it is always the case, determining when something is a paradigm shift or something truly great cannot be told instantly. It takes time. As a jazzdrummer myself (professional training and self-taught), I like what bevinahally said: that Jazz is not Mozart and Beethoven, and it doesn't have to be reproduced perfectly. Jazz is alive and sparkling. Especially London is a growing scene. In my view, this time will be viewed as a paradigm shift, because you can see a lot of young and really talented players mixing up what is known as jazz with influences from techno and hip-hop (huh, what a fun twist). Yes, if you are looking for jazz as you are taught in school (say Coltrane), that still exists, but it's to me boring. Has been done. I want to give you some examples to listen to, and you will hear what I mean. The drums use ghost notes quite heavily, 7th chords are turned into 11th and 13th chords, there are less changes in tonality. Rhythm is more straight, tighter. It get's you going! Yussef Kamaal - Calligraphy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g826StJhLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g826StJhLk) Yussef Dayes X Alfa Mist - Love Is The Message (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVtIPeYIeQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVtIPeYIeQ) Nihilism Live @jazzrefreshed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTlZEv9V35o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTlZEv9V35o) Ezra Collective - Enter The Jungle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGkZM6wjIwk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGkZM6wjIwk) Richard Spaven - The Self feat. Jordan Rakei (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YattHO96UzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YattHO96UzI) Enjoy :) jazz is for everyone

zwegner 8y ago
Thanks for these recommendations. I already really like Yussef Kamaal, and from a short sampling these other artists will definitely make it into my rotation. I feel I should also point out that Coltrane went much further than the sort of jazz that would be considered "academic" in his later years, as he got freer and more avant-garde. I particularly like the last year or so of his classic quartet (1965), as they stretched musical forms into very intense, dissonant directions, while still maintaining a masterful group cohesion. Take this performance[1] of My Favorite Things, for example, and compare it to the version released four years before--it's worlds apart. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWYWgda5f0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWYWgda5f0I
- 8y ago

stevenkovar 8y ago

Without commenting on the current state of jazz, I'll contribute several of my favorite modern artists: The loud-and-completely-aware-of-that-fact Soil & "Pimp" Sessions from Japan. The name makes no sense, but that's half the image. - AIE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWHP_mGPlJk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWHP_mGPlJk - Summer Goddess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQMgXPFzdg8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQMgXPFzdg8 Christian Scott aTunde Adjuah, with more of a soulful and at some times political approach. - Twin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktU_X7CDaBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktU_X7CDaBM - Live session: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OslN5mxWZi8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OslN5mxWZi8