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I'm really interested in hearing more about this, especially when it comes to software development in cities like Beijing and Shenzen. The stories make it seem

I'm really interested in hearing more about this, especially when it comes to software development in cities like Beijing and Shenzen. The stories make it seem like China's developer culture is really harsh, almost absurd in the intensity level and hours worked. Another question is regarding the economic position of developers, here in the US it seems like a path way to a solid upper middle class existence, is it the same in China?

teknologist 8y ago
I've heard about a well-known tech startup in China called "Pinduoduo" where the standard hours for devs at their office are from 11am-midnight on weekdays and I believe most of them work a day each weekend too. It's fairly common for small tech companies to operate like this
- fouc 8y ago
  I wonder if they picked that schedule in order to reduce rush hour/commute time.
vidanay 8y ago
The only question I have about this is _who is doing the thinking part of their coding_? Someone has to be working just a furiously architecting and concepting for all these programmers hammering out code for 14-16 hour days.
- 40acres 8y ago
  Another question is regarding open source tools, maybe it's a US bubble but I don't think I've heard of any Western companies adoping Chinese open source tools.
  - wolco 8y ago
    Vue.js could be one open source tool that many US companies are adopting.
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    The path of least resistance is contributing to English languages tools would you know if some of the commmits to insert tool here were written by someone born in China?
  - gregimba 8y ago
    Harbor was originally made by VMWare China, thats one of the few open source tools I know of.
  - neeleshs 8y ago
    A lot of Chinese contributors to many Hadoop projects
- teknologist 8y ago
  There are tech/team leads to do it, but their approach is different. Tried-and-true solutions are picked out from what's already been built at the company, and that cuts down on time consuming brainstorming and planning phases and the debates between devs and product managers. It's in some ways more conservative than what we see in the West with more copy and pasted byproducts of the planning process
ayasenico 8y ago
We have a term “996”, which means working from 9am to 9pm per day, 6 days per week. It’s common in many tech companies.
- weka 8y ago
  I hate how this is a thing. Mental health be damned. The only way this could be stopped if there was country-wide protests or walk-offs, but I doubt that would ever or could happen.
  - kkarakk 8y ago
    it isn't sustainable, people end up either moving to a less strenuous industry or pursuing higher education so they aren't devs anymore. it's really weird
- contingencies 8y ago
  I think it's largely marketing bullshit used by VCs, specifically GGV.
hieloz 8y ago
Working overtime has become routine for developer, especially first-tier cities , such as Beijing,Shanghai,Shenzhen,there is a term called "996", which means employees start at 9 am, finish around 9 pm and have to work on Saturday. Well,indeed ,developer have better odds of getting rich. but software engineering is a dead-end career,many programmers find that their employacility starts to decline at about age 35.
akfanta 8y ago
Disclaimer: Although I come from China, I never worked for a Chinese company. All of my opinions were gathered from internet and friends. And definitely not all companies are like this. One of the reason that they need to work long hours is because they need to constantly change requirements to cater to market demand. The competition is always fierce in a country with 1.4 billion population. If your competitor come out with a good feature that you can't duplicate in a few days, you bleed out user base really fast. IP laws are hard to enforce here, companies copying each other all the time. Tech giants like Baidu/Tencent have extremely low bar of integrity. If you can't grow you user base to the extent that it's cheaper to just buy you out. Those big boys will just copy your product and promote the shit out of it in a few months. You won't stand a chance against them with the uneven playground. On top of that, poor planning and the fact that PM often come from non-technical background definitely doesn't help either. Because of the demanding hours, developers are expected to change career path when they pass 30. It's really hard to keep up with the pressure when you have a family. As a result, coding is not seen as a craft but rather a mere part of a feature development process. Quality is generally considered less important than feature completion. Copy pasta code is prevalant among smaller startups because they would rather spend money on marketing rather than on good developers. Users are to be blamed for this as well. Regular Joe's care more about features and who's advertising for your product(hiring celebrities to promote apps/websites are a common thing in China) rather than how polished and well thought your product is. These are definitely not issues unique to Chinese companies, but it's just much worse. Saying all this, just like in western countries, if you know your stuff, you will be paid very well. Big companies like Alibaba/Tencent/Baidu can usually pay 50k USD or more per year for new grads. Not Silicon Valley good, but will definitely put you in middle class in China.
- weka 8y ago
  Interesting. You are right not new to China but the IP laws make it harsh. At the end of the day, it's all code. Not sure I would ever work for a company that makes you work like a sick man just to get even the with the uneven level field. How hard is it to get into Tencent/Baidu?

teknologist 8y ago

I've heard about a well-known tech startup in China called "Pinduoduo" where the standard hours for devs at their office are from 11am-midnight on weekdays and I believe most of them work a day each weekend too. It's fairly common for small tech companies to operate like this

fouc 8y ago
I wonder if they picked that schedule in order to reduce rush hour/commute time.

vidanay 8y ago

The only question I have about this is _who is doing the thinking part of their coding_? Someone has to be working just a furiously architecting and concepting for all these programmers hammering out code for 14-16 hour days.

40acres 8y ago
Another question is regarding open source tools, maybe it's a US bubble but I don't think I've heard of any Western companies adoping Chinese open source tools.
- wolco 8y ago
  Vue.js could be one open source tool that many US companies are adopting.
- michaelmrose 8y ago
  The path of least resistance is contributing to English languages tools would you know if some of the commmits to insert tool here were written by someone born in China?
- gregimba 8y ago
  Harbor was originally made by VMWare China, thats one of the few open source tools I know of.
- neeleshs 8y ago
  A lot of Chinese contributors to many Hadoop projects
teknologist 8y ago
There are tech/team leads to do it, but their approach is different. Tried-and-true solutions are picked out from what's already been built at the company, and that cuts down on time consuming brainstorming and planning phases and the debates between devs and product managers. It's in some ways more conservative than what we see in the West with more copy and pasted byproducts of the planning process

ayasenico 8y ago

We have a term “996”, which means working from 9am to 9pm per day, 6 days per week. It’s common in many tech companies.

weka 8y ago
I hate how this is a thing. Mental health be damned. The only way this could be stopped if there was country-wide protests or walk-offs, but I doubt that would ever or could happen.
- kkarakk 8y ago
  it isn't sustainable, people end up either moving to a less strenuous industry or pursuing higher education so they aren't devs anymore. it's really weird
contingencies 8y ago
I think it's largely marketing bullshit used by VCs, specifically GGV.

hieloz 8y ago

Working overtime has become routine for developer, especially first-tier cities , such as Beijing,Shanghai,Shenzhen,there is a term called "996", which means employees start at 9 am, finish around 9 pm and have to work on Saturday. Well,indeed ,developer have better odds of getting rich. but software engineering is a dead-end career,many programmers find that their employacility starts to decline at about age 35.

akfanta 8y ago

Disclaimer: Although I come from China, I never worked for a Chinese company. All of my opinions were gathered from internet and friends. And definitely not all companies are like this. One of the reason that they need to work long hours is because they need to constantly change requirements to cater to market demand. The competition is always fierce in a country with 1.4 billion population. If your competitor come out with a good feature that you can't duplicate in a few days, you bleed out user base really fast. IP laws are hard to enforce here, companies copying each other all the time. Tech giants like Baidu/Tencent have extremely low bar of integrity. If you can't grow you user base to the extent that it's cheaper to just buy you out. Those big boys will just copy your product and promote the shit out of it in a few months. You won't stand a chance against them with the uneven playground. On top of that, poor planning and the fact that PM often come from non-technical background definitely doesn't help either. Because of the demanding hours, developers are expected to change career path when they pass 30. It's really hard to keep up with the pressure when you have a family. As a result, coding is not seen as a craft but rather a mere part of a feature development process. Quality is generally considered less important than feature completion. Copy pasta code is prevalant among smaller startups because they would rather spend money on marketing rather than on good developers. Users are to be blamed for this as well. Regular Joe's care more about features and who's advertising for your product(hiring celebrities to promote apps/websites are a common thing in China) rather than how polished and well thought your product is. These are definitely not issues unique to Chinese companies, but it's just much worse. Saying all this, just like in western countries, if you know your stuff, you will be paid very well. Big companies like Alibaba/Tencent/Baidu can usually pay 50k USD or more per year for new grads. Not Silicon Valley good, but will definitely put you in middle class in China.

weka 8y ago
Interesting. You are right not new to China but the IP laws make it harsh. At the end of the day, it's all code. Not sure I would ever work for a company that makes you work like a sick man just to get even the with the uneven level field. How hard is it to get into Tencent/Baidu?