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I'm in no way trying to say it's her fault. But if there is some pattern to the situation perhaps it would be worthwhile to analyze in the hopes that it didn't

I'm in no way trying to say it's her fault. But if there is some pattern to the situation perhaps it would be worthwhile to analyze in the hopes that it didn't happen again? It's unfair and unjust that in doing so she might uncover something she could change to help prevent some pervert from doing something atrocious... but if it did prevent it, wouldn't it be worth it? It seems logical to me... but I guess in being logical I'm somehow being sexist or something (which is why my original comment is getting downvoted?)?

cowpewter 16y ago
Yeah, I get that you specifically aren't trying to say it's her fault. It's just that overwhelmingly, when harassment occurs to women, the conversation turns to 'What could she have done differently to make it not happen to her?' and NOT 'What can we do to make it so men don't harass?' If it didn't happen to so many women, so often, then maybe the conversation could go that way. But as you say, let's analyze the pattern. What if the pattern is "Go to tech conferences and socialize in a normal and acceptable manner with other people who share my interests"? What are you going to tell her? Don't go to tech conferences? Don't network with other people in your industry at a bar? Don't talk to a man while drunk? While sober but he is drunk? Don't talk to a man at all? Don't walk down the street at night in a skirt. Don't walk down the street at night at all. Don't leave your house.
- bradleyjoyce 16y ago
  I wouldn't tell her anything, quite frankly, other than to suggest that SHE analyze the situation and make her own determinations. Going to extremes (don't leave the house) is obviously not a realistic or constructive option.
  - cowpewter 16y ago
    Again, nothing against you specifically. Consider it a generic 'you' and that absurdist reduction is absurd. But unfortunately, it's what a lot of people actually seem to believe, even if they don't state it in so many words.
angrycoder 16y ago
The 'pattern' is that she is a woman. Stuff like this happens to women all the time, regardless of their behavior. Its not the behavior of the women that is at fault, it is the man's.
- bradleyjoyce 16y ago
  I would think that the pattern is more than just being a woman... but I know what you are trying to say. I'm not saying that her behavior is at fault (100% the man's fault), but I'm suggesting that PERHAPS there is something she could have done differently to avoid what happened, and if so, it would be worthwhile to determine what that possible thing is.
  - angrycoder 16y ago
    No, I mean that quite literally. The pattern is being a woman. I don't know a single woman that something like this hasn't happened to, and it is usually much worse than an unwelcomed kiss and grope. The only way to avoid it is tell a woman to never be attractive. Never be friendly to men. Don't ever smile at them. And god forbid, don't flirt with them. Don't get drunk and try to have fun. When us guys get wasted, the worst thing we have to worry about is one of our friends shaving our eyebrows, not some strange dude trying to fuck us.
    - hypatiadotca 16y ago
      being "unattractive" has never been any sort of protection against sexual assault :/
silencio 16y ago
You can basically read it two ways. One way is that you're suggesting that she's at fault for being an assault victim (all other things aside about this story). Along the lines of "she deserved it", "she was asking for it", and similar victim blaming. Another more logical way to read what you're saying is that she should think to see if she's doing anything wrong when she's telling these guys to go away or stop, like conflicting body language. My only problem with that argument is that very few people purposefully do anything to get that kind of behavior out of someone else that they don't want it from. It's like ignoring the elephant in the room, which is the behavior of the person doing the assaulting. I've never been sexually assaulted by anyone at any event (and I am female), but I've had plenty of guys hit on me and feel me up and such. If I don't know you as a close friend, "stop" means stop. Doesn't matter how naked or dressed or drunk or sober or sleepy I might be. It is NEVER my fault for being who I am and telling people to stop at the same time. People that can't understand anything like that need to reconsider what they're doing, because they're about to cross a very, very uncomfortable line. And thankfully, every person that has ever tried to do such a thing has stopped. Good thing, cause I'm the type that will eventually break fingers and call the cops no matter how drunk I am over something like that. That is never acceptable behavior. I don't do that to any person, ever. Nobody should ever be doing that to anyone else. Lastly, please don't read this as any sort of commentary on the actual story in question. I was shocked to read the post originally, but I'm not passing judgment on anyone. Just a general statement.

cowpewter 16y ago

Yeah, I get that you specifically aren't trying to say it's her fault. It's just that overwhelmingly, when harassment occurs to women, the conversation turns to 'What could she have done differently to make it not happen to her?' and NOT 'What can we do to make it so men don't harass?' If it didn't happen to so many women, so often, then maybe the conversation could go that way. But as you say, let's analyze the pattern. What if the pattern is "Go to tech conferences and socialize in a normal and acceptable manner with other people who share my interests"? What are you going to tell her? Don't go to tech conferences? Don't network with other people in your industry at a bar? Don't talk to a man while drunk? While sober but he is drunk? Don't talk to a man at all? Don't walk down the street at night in a skirt. Don't walk down the street at night at all. Don't leave your house.

bradleyjoyce 16y ago
I wouldn't tell her anything, quite frankly, other than to suggest that SHE analyze the situation and make her own determinations. Going to extremes (don't leave the house) is obviously not a realistic or constructive option.
- cowpewter 16y ago
  Again, nothing against you specifically. Consider it a generic 'you' and that absurdist reduction is absurd. But unfortunately, it's what a lot of people actually seem to believe, even if they don't state it in so many words.

angrycoder 16y ago

The 'pattern' is that she is a woman. Stuff like this happens to women all the time, regardless of their behavior. Its not the behavior of the women that is at fault, it is the man's.

bradleyjoyce 16y ago
I would think that the pattern is more than just being a woman... but I know what you are trying to say. I'm not saying that her behavior is at fault (100% the man's fault), but I'm suggesting that PERHAPS there is something she could have done differently to avoid what happened, and if so, it would be worthwhile to determine what that possible thing is.
- angrycoder 16y ago
  No, I mean that quite literally. The pattern is being a woman. I don't know a single woman that something like this hasn't happened to, and it is usually much worse than an unwelcomed kiss and grope. The only way to avoid it is tell a woman to never be attractive. Never be friendly to men. Don't ever smile at them. And god forbid, don't flirt with them. Don't get drunk and try to have fun. When us guys get wasted, the worst thing we have to worry about is one of our friends shaving our eyebrows, not some strange dude trying to fuck us.
  - hypatiadotca 16y ago
    being "unattractive" has never been any sort of protection against sexual assault :/

silencio 16y ago

You can basically read it two ways. One way is that you're suggesting that she's at fault for being an assault victim (all other things aside about this story). Along the lines of "she deserved it", "she was asking for it", and similar victim blaming. Another more logical way to read what you're saying is that she should think to see if she's doing anything wrong when she's telling these guys to go away or stop, like conflicting body language. My only problem with that argument is that very few people purposefully do anything to get that kind of behavior out of someone else that they don't want it from. It's like ignoring the elephant in the room, which is the behavior of the person doing the assaulting. I've never been sexually assaulted by anyone at any event (and I am female), but I've had plenty of guys hit on me and feel me up and such. If I don't know you as a close friend, "stop" means stop. Doesn't matter how naked or dressed or drunk or sober or sleepy I might be. It is NEVER my fault for being who I am and telling people to stop at the same time. People that can't understand anything like that need to reconsider what they're doing, because they're about to cross a very, very uncomfortable line. And thankfully, every person that has ever tried to do such a thing has stopped. Good thing, cause I'm the type that will eventually break fingers and call the cops no matter how drunk I am over something like that. That is never acceptable behavior. I don't do that to any person, ever. Nobody should ever be doing that to anyone else. Lastly, please don't read this as any sort of commentary on the actual story in question. I was shocked to read the post originally, but I'm not passing judgment on anyone. Just a general statement.