4 ms·

"If it's not the first time this has happened, it might be time to re-evaluate the pattern of behavior that led up to the unfortunate event." Responses like th

"If it's not the first time this has happened, it might be time to re-evaluate the pattern of behavior that led up to the unfortunate event." Responses like this are exactly why women don't speak up when these things happen.

robryan 16y ago
Yeah, it's not like a large number of guys got the wrong impression here, just the one. If the rest of us can be sensible and respectful why should the outlier force females to act a different way. It's the same as not taking trains because maybe 1 in every 1000 guys late at night cause trouble.
bradleyjoyce 16y ago
I'm in no way trying to say it's her fault. But if there is some pattern to the situation perhaps it would be worthwhile to analyze in the hopes that it didn't happen again? It's unfair and unjust that in doing so she might uncover something she could change to help prevent some pervert from doing something atrocious... but if it did prevent it, wouldn't it be worth it? It seems logical to me... but I guess in being logical I'm somehow being sexist or something (which is why my original comment is getting downvoted?)?
- cowpewter 16y ago
  Yeah, I get that you specifically aren't trying to say it's her fault. It's just that overwhelmingly, when harassment occurs to women, the conversation turns to 'What could she have done differently to make it not happen to her?' and NOT 'What can we do to make it so men don't harass?' If it didn't happen to so many women, so often, then maybe the conversation could go that way. But as you say, let's analyze the pattern. What if the pattern is "Go to tech conferences and socialize in a normal and acceptable manner with other people who share my interests"? What are you going to tell her? Don't go to tech conferences? Don't network with other people in your industry at a bar? Don't talk to a man while drunk? While sober but he is drunk? Don't talk to a man at all? Don't walk down the street at night in a skirt. Don't walk down the street at night at all. Don't leave your house.
  - bradleyjoyce 16y ago
    I wouldn't tell her anything, quite frankly, other than to suggest that SHE analyze the situation and make her own determinations. Going to extremes (don't leave the house) is obviously not a realistic or constructive option.
    - cowpewter 16y ago
      Again, nothing against you specifically. Consider it a generic 'you' and that absurdist reduction is absurd. But unfortunately, it's what a lot of people actually seem to believe, even if they don't state it in so many words.
- angrycoder 16y ago
  The 'pattern' is that she is a woman. Stuff like this happens to women all the time, regardless of their behavior. Its not the behavior of the women that is at fault, it is the man's.
  - bradleyjoyce 16y ago
    I would think that the pattern is more than just being a woman... but I know what you are trying to say. I'm not saying that her behavior is at fault (100% the man's fault), but I'm suggesting that PERHAPS there is something she could have done differently to avoid what happened, and if so, it would be worthwhile to determine what that possible thing is.
    - angrycoder 16y ago
      No, I mean that quite literally. The pattern is being a woman. I don't know a single woman that something like this hasn't happened to, and it is usually much worse than an unwelcomed kiss and grope. The only way to avoid it is tell a woman to never be attractive. Never be friendly to men. Don't ever smile at them. And god forbid, don't flirt with them. Don't get drunk and try to have fun. When us guys get wasted, the worst thing we have to worry about is one of our friends shaving our eyebrows, not some strange dude trying to fuck us.
      - hypatiadotca 16y ago
        being "unattractive" has never been any sort of protection against sexual assault :/
- silencio 16y ago
  You can basically read it two ways. One way is that you're suggesting that she's at fault for being an assault victim (all other things aside about this story). Along the lines of "she deserved it", "she was asking for it", and similar victim blaming. Another more logical way to read what you're saying is that she should think to see if she's doing anything wrong when she's telling these guys to go away or stop, like conflicting body language. My only problem with that argument is that very few people purposefully do anything to get that kind of behavior out of someone else that they don't want it from. It's like ignoring the elephant in the room, which is the behavior of the person doing the assaulting. I've never been sexually assaulted by anyone at any event (and I am female), but I've had plenty of guys hit on me and feel me up and such. If I don't know you as a close friend, "stop" means stop. Doesn't matter how naked or dressed or drunk or sober or sleepy I might be. It is NEVER my fault for being who I am and telling people to stop at the same time. People that can't understand anything like that need to reconsider what they're doing, because they're about to cross a very, very uncomfortable line. And thankfully, every person that has ever tried to do such a thing has stopped. Good thing, cause I'm the type that will eventually break fingers and call the cops no matter how drunk I am over something like that. That is never acceptable behavior. I don't do that to any person, ever. Nobody should ever be doing that to anyone else. Lastly, please don't read this as any sort of commentary on the actual story in question. I was shocked to read the post originally, but I'm not passing judgment on anyone. Just a general statement.
dkokelley 16y ago
Devil's advocate: What would you tell a man who walks home at night alone through a shady neighbourhood and got mugged with any frequency (to the point he expects he will be mugged again walking home through the same neighbourhood)? Of course the muggers are 100% responsible for their actions. The man wasn't 'asking to get mugged', and has the right to walk down through that neighbourhood and expect a level of safety. But still, the appropriate suggestion is to recommend a safer behaviour. Applying the analogy to a woman's sexual assault scenario, you would have to look at the various pieces, and how they translate to our model. Was she dressing or behaving promiscuously? Is she going out and partying late at night? Yes, it is her right to dress and behave how she likes, and she should be able to do so safely, but this isn't the world we live in. These actions are the equivalent of walking through the unsafe neighbourhood alone at night in our above model. The goal for society shouldn't be to regulate the woman's behaviour until she avoids all potential dangers. No, it should be to regulate the behaviour of the assaulter - by holding him accountable, and punishing him as necessary. Still, until society changes, it would be prudent for the women to make safer decisions. This is no way is meant to apply directly to the OP's situation. The man made a move - aggressively - she refused, and he assaulted her. I don't know how her behaviour could have changed this. (Allegedly. No need for any Internet justice here.)This is just meant to portray a counter-example. Responses like 'she was asking to be raped/assaulted' are unacceptable IMH. A woman could be walking down the street naked, and if she were raped it would be 100% the rapists fault. Sure it might not be wise for the woman, but the rapist must be held accountable.
- cowpewter 16y ago
  Understood, and yes people do need moderate their own behavior in order to safeguard their own safety. We don't live in a perfect utopia. It's just that every time a women is assaulted and the first response out of most of the people she tells (including the police! and others who are supposed to be there for her safety!) is "Well what did you do wrong?" it makes women want to not speak up at all.
  - dkokelley 16y ago
    Understandable, and this behaviour needs to be fixed. Then again, the duties, behaviours, and effectiveness of police forces remains a topic for another thread!

robryan 16y ago

Yeah, it's not like a large number of guys got the wrong impression here, just the one. If the rest of us can be sensible and respectful why should the outlier force females to act a different way. It's the same as not taking trains because maybe 1 in every 1000 guys late at night cause trouble.

bradleyjoyce 16y ago

I'm in no way trying to say it's her fault. But if there is some pattern to the situation perhaps it would be worthwhile to analyze in the hopes that it didn't happen again? It's unfair and unjust that in doing so she might uncover something she could change to help prevent some pervert from doing something atrocious... but if it did prevent it, wouldn't it be worth it? It seems logical to me... but I guess in being logical I'm somehow being sexist or something (which is why my original comment is getting downvoted?)?

cowpewter 16y ago
Yeah, I get that you specifically aren't trying to say it's her fault. It's just that overwhelmingly, when harassment occurs to women, the conversation turns to 'What could she have done differently to make it not happen to her?' and NOT 'What can we do to make it so men don't harass?' If it didn't happen to so many women, so often, then maybe the conversation could go that way. But as you say, let's analyze the pattern. What if the pattern is "Go to tech conferences and socialize in a normal and acceptable manner with other people who share my interests"? What are you going to tell her? Don't go to tech conferences? Don't network with other people in your industry at a bar? Don't talk to a man while drunk? While sober but he is drunk? Don't talk to a man at all? Don't walk down the street at night in a skirt. Don't walk down the street at night at all. Don't leave your house.
- bradleyjoyce 16y ago
  I wouldn't tell her anything, quite frankly, other than to suggest that SHE analyze the situation and make her own determinations. Going to extremes (don't leave the house) is obviously not a realistic or constructive option.
  - cowpewter 16y ago
    Again, nothing against you specifically. Consider it a generic 'you' and that absurdist reduction is absurd. But unfortunately, it's what a lot of people actually seem to believe, even if they don't state it in so many words.
angrycoder 16y ago
The 'pattern' is that she is a woman. Stuff like this happens to women all the time, regardless of their behavior. Its not the behavior of the women that is at fault, it is the man's.
- bradleyjoyce 16y ago
  I would think that the pattern is more than just being a woman... but I know what you are trying to say. I'm not saying that her behavior is at fault (100% the man's fault), but I'm suggesting that PERHAPS there is something she could have done differently to avoid what happened, and if so, it would be worthwhile to determine what that possible thing is.
  - angrycoder 16y ago
    No, I mean that quite literally. The pattern is being a woman. I don't know a single woman that something like this hasn't happened to, and it is usually much worse than an unwelcomed kiss and grope. The only way to avoid it is tell a woman to never be attractive. Never be friendly to men. Don't ever smile at them. And god forbid, don't flirt with them. Don't get drunk and try to have fun. When us guys get wasted, the worst thing we have to worry about is one of our friends shaving our eyebrows, not some strange dude trying to fuck us.
    - hypatiadotca 16y ago
      being "unattractive" has never been any sort of protection against sexual assault :/
silencio 16y ago
You can basically read it two ways. One way is that you're suggesting that she's at fault for being an assault victim (all other things aside about this story). Along the lines of "she deserved it", "she was asking for it", and similar victim blaming. Another more logical way to read what you're saying is that she should think to see if she's doing anything wrong when she's telling these guys to go away or stop, like conflicting body language. My only problem with that argument is that very few people purposefully do anything to get that kind of behavior out of someone else that they don't want it from. It's like ignoring the elephant in the room, which is the behavior of the person doing the assaulting. I've never been sexually assaulted by anyone at any event (and I am female), but I've had plenty of guys hit on me and feel me up and such. If I don't know you as a close friend, "stop" means stop. Doesn't matter how naked or dressed or drunk or sober or sleepy I might be. It is NEVER my fault for being who I am and telling people to stop at the same time. People that can't understand anything like that need to reconsider what they're doing, because they're about to cross a very, very uncomfortable line. And thankfully, every person that has ever tried to do such a thing has stopped. Good thing, cause I'm the type that will eventually break fingers and call the cops no matter how drunk I am over something like that. That is never acceptable behavior. I don't do that to any person, ever. Nobody should ever be doing that to anyone else. Lastly, please don't read this as any sort of commentary on the actual story in question. I was shocked to read the post originally, but I'm not passing judgment on anyone. Just a general statement.

dkokelley 16y ago

Devil's advocate: What would you tell a man who walks home at night alone through a shady neighbourhood and got mugged with any frequency (to the point he expects he will be mugged again walking home through the same neighbourhood)? Of course the muggers are 100% responsible for their actions. The man wasn't 'asking to get mugged', and has the right to walk down through that neighbourhood and expect a level of safety. But still, the appropriate suggestion is to recommend a safer behaviour. Applying the analogy to a woman's sexual assault scenario, you would have to look at the various pieces, and how they translate to our model. Was she dressing or behaving promiscuously? Is she going out and partying late at night? Yes, it is her right to dress and behave how she likes, and she should be able to do so safely, but this isn't the world we live in. These actions are the equivalent of walking through the unsafe neighbourhood alone at night in our above model. The goal for society shouldn't be to regulate the woman's behaviour until she avoids all potential dangers. No, it should be to regulate the behaviour of the assaulter - by holding him accountable, and punishing him as necessary. Still, until society changes, it would be prudent for the women to make safer decisions. This is no way is meant to apply directly to the OP's situation. The man made a move - aggressively - she refused, and he assaulted her. I don't know how her behaviour could have changed this. (Allegedly. No need for any Internet justice here.)This is just meant to portray a counter-example. Responses like 'she was asking to be raped/assaulted' are unacceptable IMH. A woman could be walking down the street naked, and if she were raped it would be 100% the rapists fault. Sure it might not be wise for the woman, but the rapist must be held accountable.

cowpewter 16y ago
Understood, and yes people do need moderate their own behavior in order to safeguard their own safety. We don't live in a perfect utopia. It's just that every time a women is assaulted and the first response out of most of the people she tells (including the police! and others who are supposed to be there for her safety!) is "Well what did you do wrong?" it makes women want to not speak up at all.
- dkokelley 16y ago
  Understandable, and this behaviour needs to be fixed. Then again, the duties, behaviours, and effectiveness of police forces remains a topic for another thread!