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The article talks about one of the primary motivations for using Lisp being that it's 'fun,' which is a comment I've heard about Lisp elsewhere, and which makes

The article talks about one of the primary motivations for using Lisp being that it's 'fun,' which is a comment I've heard about Lisp elsewhere, and which makes sense to me since I've noted a difference in funness between other languages. So that's pretty appealing to me, but I haven't quite found the right Lisp to use. It seems like Clojure (probably ClojureScript actually) would be the most practical for me to use on some projects—but I'm curious whether others have found Clojure/ClojureScript to have that same element of fun Lisp is sometimes known for.

armitron 8y ago
Clojure is practically tied to the JVM and the Java ecosystem (ClojureScript is different enough to count as a different language so I'll focus on Clojure). To me that's not fun. It's also limited by design to fit the development model Rich Hickey wanted for his consultancy. It is nowhere near as encompassing or paradigm agnostic as Common Lisp. Moreover, you can take old Lisp code that's 40+ years old and run it today on top of Common Lisp with no/minor changes. Clojure breaks compatibility with Lisp code in many different ways. For me these reasons are enough not to consider Clojure a Lisp.
- _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
  Still, in cases where one is tied to the Java ecosystem for whatever reason, surely Clojure is better than no-clojure?
  - armitron 8y ago
    I'd still pick something else in that case too since I don't really like the decisions behind Clojure. But hey go for it if it fits the problems that you find yourself solving.
    - maufdez 8y ago
      There's always Armed Bear Common Lisp. which runs on the JVM, if you want to stay in it. And you can also try [Linj](https://github.com/xach/linj https://github.com/xach/linj) which is similar to Common Lisp an transpiles to Java.
      - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
        Interesting. Can ABCL be used for the same sorts of use cases as Clojure?
- dustingetz 8y ago
  if by limited we mean full ecosystem compatibility with jvm and javascript, then yes, Clojure is limited. Which 40 year old CL codebase is it that i am trying to run?
  - lispm 8y ago
    > if by limited we mean full ecosystem compatibility with jvm and javascript, then yes, Clojure is limited. I don't think that was he meant. Probably he meant that Clojure took a bunch of things from Lisp, but there is a lot in Lisp, which is not in Clojure - for example because of the limitations of the JVM eco-system (for example creating an executable image in SBCL of a running Lisp is an easy task, whereas in Clojure it involves a complex & slow machinery like GraalVM) or design limitations imposed by its developers (like a compiler written in Java and no interpreter) - plus it seems not to be an open language design - more or less the language is driven by a single company listening to its community and sometimes not.
  - armitron 8y ago
    The decisions behind Clojure worked out well for Rich Hickey and his consultancy but they don't fit the programs that I find myself writing all the time (compilers, assemblers, virtual machines, tight control of code generation and memory operations and so on). I can do all of that - and more - in SBCL and it's a pleasure to use as the I don't have to bend myself to work around language shortcomings. Common Lisp gives me a multitude of programming paradigms and an enormous arsenal of approaches to use. When working in exploratory domains, that I do all the time, nothing else comes close. Here is an example of using SBCL for exploratory lowlevel programming by Paul Khuong [1]. I've written performant and lightweight TCP/IP network stacks in Common Lisp. Clojure is just too constrained. As far as old Lisp code goes, it's everywhere - if you care to look -. The lambda papers, McCarthy's original papers, the CMU CL repository (still of practical use today), vast archives of Lisp code from MIT and so on and so forth. Not to mention useful frameworks like Screamer [2] which is close to 30 years old and Maxima [3] which is even older. [1] https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/ https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembl... [2] http://nikodemus.github.io/screamer/ http://nikodemus.github.io/screamer/ [3] http://maxima.sourceforge.net http://maxima.sourceforge.net
slifin 8y ago
I find it fun, repl driven development, immutability, functions and maps as first class, practical in many situations Also Datomic hyperfiddle and specs

armitron 8y ago

Clojure is practically tied to the JVM and the Java ecosystem (ClojureScript is different enough to count as a different language so I'll focus on Clojure). To me that's not fun. It's also limited by design to fit the development model Rich Hickey wanted for his consultancy. It is nowhere near as encompassing or paradigm agnostic as Common Lisp. Moreover, you can take old Lisp code that's 40+ years old and run it today on top of Common Lisp with no/minor changes. Clojure breaks compatibility with Lisp code in many different ways. For me these reasons are enough not to consider Clojure a Lisp.

_emacsomancer_ 8y ago
Still, in cases where one is tied to the Java ecosystem for whatever reason, surely Clojure is better than no-clojure?
- armitron 8y ago
  I'd still pick something else in that case too since I don't really like the decisions behind Clojure. But hey go for it if it fits the problems that you find yourself solving.
  - maufdez 8y ago
    There's always Armed Bear Common Lisp. which runs on the JVM, if you want to stay in it. And you can also try [Linj](https://github.com/xach/linj https://github.com/xach/linj) which is similar to Common Lisp an transpiles to Java.
    - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
      Interesting. Can ABCL be used for the same sorts of use cases as Clojure?
dustingetz 8y ago
if by limited we mean full ecosystem compatibility with jvm and javascript, then yes, Clojure is limited. Which 40 year old CL codebase is it that i am trying to run?
- lispm 8y ago
  > if by limited we mean full ecosystem compatibility with jvm and javascript, then yes, Clojure is limited. I don't think that was he meant. Probably he meant that Clojure took a bunch of things from Lisp, but there is a lot in Lisp, which is not in Clojure - for example because of the limitations of the JVM eco-system (for example creating an executable image in SBCL of a running Lisp is an easy task, whereas in Clojure it involves a complex & slow machinery like GraalVM) or design limitations imposed by its developers (like a compiler written in Java and no interpreter) - plus it seems not to be an open language design - more or less the language is driven by a single company listening to its community and sometimes not.
- armitron 8y ago
  The decisions behind Clojure worked out well for Rich Hickey and his consultancy but they don't fit the programs that I find myself writing all the time (compilers, assemblers, virtual machines, tight control of code generation and memory operations and so on). I can do all of that - and more - in SBCL and it's a pleasure to use as the I don't have to bend myself to work around language shortcomings. Common Lisp gives me a multitude of programming paradigms and an enormous arsenal of approaches to use. When working in exploratory domains, that I do all the time, nothing else comes close. Here is an example of using SBCL for exploratory lowlevel programming by Paul Khuong [1]. I've written performant and lightweight TCP/IP network stacks in Common Lisp. Clojure is just too constrained. As far as old Lisp code goes, it's everywhere - if you care to look -. The lambda papers, McCarthy's original papers, the CMU CL repository (still of practical use today), vast archives of Lisp code from MIT and so on and so forth. Not to mention useful frameworks like Screamer [2] which is close to 30 years old and Maxima [3] which is even older. [1] https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/ https://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembl... [2] http://nikodemus.github.io/screamer/ http://nikodemus.github.io/screamer/ [3] http://maxima.sourceforge.net http://maxima.sourceforge.net

slifin 8y ago

I find it fun, repl driven development, immutability, functions and maps as first class, practical in many situations Also Datomic hyperfiddle and specs