8 ms·

Jazz musician here. This practice is absolutely standard. You are way off base. If you can't transpose on the fly, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. If

by rewgs 8y ago

Jazz musician here. This practice is absolutely standard. You are way off base. If you can't transpose on the fly, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. If you can't play equally well in all keys, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. If you resist on principle (where the hell are you getting this?), then you will be called out and probably asked to leave. But that never happens due to the previous two points. Jazz has a long tradition on being a pretty hardcore meritocracy, on the grounds of achieving freedom while improvising over a tune. A group can only play as well as its weakest link, and that's no fun. So we take fun very seriously and practice our asses off so that, when the time comes, we can do amazing things together. PS no one is gonna call out F#. They might call out Gb though. We always err to the side of flat keys, not sharps (horns like flat keys more).

yesenadam 8y ago
Another jazz musician here. (jazz pianist for 30+ years) If you can't transpose on the fly, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. Well, there's transposing and transposing. Transposing up/down a tone, semitone, fourth, fifth usually isn't too hard, depending on the song and tempo. But transposing some tunes by some intervals is very tricky. Most people have, I suspect, not practised doing that much, because there's no need. (No need at all if you don't play with singers.) Some jazz musicians practise playing tunes in every key, but a small minority, I believe. (And then you wouldn't be 'transposing on the fly' but doing something you've practised.) Being able to play tunes in one key is enough. But saying what you said so dogmatically sounds ridiculous to me. (I mean really..if someone can't, say, play Stella by Starlight in E 'on the fly' you'd tell them "You're not a good jazz musician. Period."?!) If you can't play equally well in all keys, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. That's just rubbish. I'm not sure who you're trying to impress or why, but what you say just sounds wrong. And so arrogant: "You are way off base" "Period." "where the hell are you getting this?" etc. Everything the GP said sounded right to me. Read it again - you weren't really responding to what they said at all, but something else. It seems you felt insulted or something, I don't know why.
- bane 8y ago
  Not a Jazz musician, but this back and forth reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62tIvfP9A2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62tIvfP9A2w
  - yesenadam 8y ago
    (It's a not bad discussion of Giant Steps and 'Coltrane changes' for non-musicians)
- rewgs 8y ago
  I see what you're saying -- my language can definitely be interpreted as asshole-ish. Tone is obviously hard to interpret when speaking in text, but my intention is to just clear things up gently but firmly -- I should do better with that, I grant you that. How I feel seeing mostly-tech people talking about music is how tech people probably feel when they see CSI show us a "hacker." It's just way off so often, and like most people on this site, I usually like to correct incorrect statements when I see them; there's no point in letting misinformation or incorrect assumptions stand if I can easily jump in and clear it up. I feel like you're ignoring the context of the what I was replying to, though. This discussion is talking about standards. It's a trope by this point that every serious jazz student is encouraged -- forced, even -- to learn standards in all 12 keys. I've been fortunate to study at some pretty "prestigious" schools, hang and take private lessons with some seriously heavy hitters in the jazz world, and absolutely none of my peers or educators would bat an eye at what I said. Many of them may not like it (myself included), others totally perpetuate it, but zero would disagree that it is a very commonly-held attitude. I'm not defending the, as I called it, "hardcore meritocracy" of the jazz world -- stating that exists is not the same as defending it. It can be toxic (though it's improved a lot in recent decades), and you're correct to refer to it as dogmatically ridiculous. It's often backwards-thinking and stuck in the past. I think the whole culture of using standards as some reliable barometer of someone's skill is insane, and is a total waste of time. These and other reasons are why I'm not longer a professional jazz musician -- I've since moved on to things that interest me far more than improvising over the Real Book. But I'm just stating facts. Waltz into any club in any serious jazz city like NYC, Boston, or Paris, ask to play, and see what happens when a tune is called out in a certain key, and you pipe up and say, "Uh, I only know that one in __. Can we do that instead?" Once is maybe fine, but after two or three and they'll tell you to get off the stage, because you're not a "real" jazz musician. The gate-keeping is real. Again, not defending it. I want to make it clear that I think it's fucking stupid. But this is reality. Period ;)
microtherion 8y ago
> Jazz musician here. Ah, but are you a VOCALIST? In my experience: * Instrumentalists tend to have a certain baseline of competence when they show up at jam sessions. Vocalists are more variable. * Possibly because of that reason, vocalists sometimes are held to stricter standards than instrumentalists. > This practice is absolutely standard. You are way off base. You may be moving in different circles than I do, and may assume that all of Jazz works the same way. > If you can't play equally well in all keys, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. "good" is not a binary thing. I don't think I've ever met a pianist who was truly indifferent to what key to play in (Generally they prefer flat keys to sharp keys, and fewer flats to more). And vocalists should know how a song fits in their range. > If you resist on principle (where the hell are you getting this?) It's all about the power dynamics. I've seen refusals to sight-transpose all the time. > Jazz has a long tradition on being a pretty hardcore meritocracy Jazz (like many institutions that hide behind "meritocracy"), also has a long tradition of cliquish behavior. > PS no one is gonna call out F#. They might call out Gb though. We always err to the side of flat keys, not sharps (horns like flat keys more). … which would tend to contradict your claim above that good jazz musicians can play equally well in all keys, wouldn't it?
- jacquesm 8y ago
  They can play equally well, it just will not sound as good. Long time sax player here.
  - yesenadam 8y ago
    I don't think that's what "equally well" means!
    - Zuider 8y ago
      An application of the principle of intellectual charity would have gone a long way here. As a musician, I understood the OP to mean that even though a player may be able to play with equal facility in any key, the instrument will sound better or worse depending on the key.
lostgame 8y ago
Okay, but what you’re saying is hardly relevant to OP’s post, and you’re also limiting the entire grand sphere of music to a single genre that is well-known for requiring some of the most technically proficient artists in the world. You, sir, as the farthest thing from the example. I play sax in two concert bands and everyone gets their own, and previously transposed, music. If someone doesn’t they’re reasonably pissed. The musical world is not your little jazz bubble. It’s huge. And most people prefer transposed music.
- rewgs 8y ago
  I'm not "limiting the entire grand sphere of music." OP brought up improvising over standards, which brings to mind the bop/post-bop/"straight-ahead" jazz world, does it not? It definitely doesn't bring up concert bands. Obviously concert bands need their music -- it's highly composed, a larger ensemble, unlike the small quartets or quintets which are the context at hand. And yes, I'm well aware that the musical world is not "my little jazz bubble" (not mine -- read my other replies, I left that world for a reason). Sorry I somehow gave the impression that I'm some closed-minded curmudgeon. I'm actually anything but.
jdietrich 8y ago
It's important to note that jazz musicians tend to think as much in terms of relative harmonic and melodic movement as absolute pitch. I have a decent repertoire of standards, but I honestly couldn't tell you what key any of those tunes were written in. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numeral_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numeral_analysis You're possibly being a bit harsh, but only a bit - being able to transpose on the fly is a fundamental skill in jazz, akin to sight-reading in classical music. I can't sight-read particularly well and would embarrass myself in a classical rehearsal, but I can instantly transpose a lead sheet into any key and I would expect the same of anyone who expects to be called a jazz musician rather than a jazz student.
- rewgs 8y ago
  Thanks for pointing that out -- that's such a cleaner way of presenting the argument I was trying to make. Doh. Yes, when I was learning standards, I learned them by harmonic analysis, not by literally learning them in all 12 keys. If you know that it's ii-V-I, any reasonably good musician should be able to do that in all 12 keys off the bat. Thus, you simultaneously know the tune better, and the problem of transposing disappears. Well said!
trocado 8y ago
Guitarrist here, played hundreds or thousands of standards gigs. It's true that you can assume that good musicians will play a tune in any given key. However, I think in the real world nobody plays equally well in all keys. Also, even for instrumentalists, things don't lay the same way in different keys. Sometimes people intentionally call tunes in uncommon keys to force them off the beaten path, which is telling. I think singers should be able to sing in all keys, just like everybody else. That said, in a jam session, student practice or other informal setting it's recommended that the singer brings sheet music for everyone for other keys than the "usual one". Also nowadays people will reach for their cell phone and "real book" app. On the other hand, I won't be caught reading standards off the paper in public, so there's that too.

by rewgs 8y ago

yesenadam 8y ago

Another jazz musician here. (jazz pianist for 30+ years) If you can't transpose on the fly, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. Well, there's transposing and transposing. Transposing up/down a tone, semitone, fourth, fifth usually isn't too hard, depending on the song and tempo. But transposing some tunes by some intervals is very tricky. Most people have, I suspect, not practised doing that much, because there's no need. (No need at all if you don't play with singers.) Some jazz musicians practise playing tunes in every key, but a small minority, I believe. (And then you wouldn't be 'transposing on the fly' but doing something you've practised.) Being able to play tunes in one key is enough. But saying what you said so dogmatically sounds ridiculous to me. (I mean really..if someone can't, say, play Stella by Starlight in E 'on the fly' you'd tell them "You're not a good jazz musician. Period."?!) If you can't play equally well in all keys, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. That's just rubbish. I'm not sure who you're trying to impress or why, but what you say just sounds wrong. And so arrogant: "You are way off base" "Period." "where the hell are you getting this?" etc. Everything the GP said sounded right to me. Read it again - you weren't really responding to what they said at all, but something else. It seems you felt insulted or something, I don't know why.

bane 8y ago
Not a Jazz musician, but this back and forth reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62tIvfP9A2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62tIvfP9A2w
- yesenadam 8y ago
  (It's a not bad discussion of Giant Steps and 'Coltrane changes' for non-musicians)
rewgs 8y ago
I see what you're saying -- my language can definitely be interpreted as asshole-ish. Tone is obviously hard to interpret when speaking in text, but my intention is to just clear things up gently but firmly -- I should do better with that, I grant you that. How I feel seeing mostly-tech people talking about music is how tech people probably feel when they see CSI show us a "hacker." It's just way off so often, and like most people on this site, I usually like to correct incorrect statements when I see them; there's no point in letting misinformation or incorrect assumptions stand if I can easily jump in and clear it up. I feel like you're ignoring the context of the what I was replying to, though. This discussion is talking about standards. It's a trope by this point that every serious jazz student is encouraged -- forced, even -- to learn standards in all 12 keys. I've been fortunate to study at some pretty "prestigious" schools, hang and take private lessons with some seriously heavy hitters in the jazz world, and absolutely none of my peers or educators would bat an eye at what I said. Many of them may not like it (myself included), others totally perpetuate it, but zero would disagree that it is a very commonly-held attitude. I'm not defending the, as I called it, "hardcore meritocracy" of the jazz world -- stating that exists is not the same as defending it. It can be toxic (though it's improved a lot in recent decades), and you're correct to refer to it as dogmatically ridiculous. It's often backwards-thinking and stuck in the past. I think the whole culture of using standards as some reliable barometer of someone's skill is insane, and is a total waste of time. These and other reasons are why I'm not longer a professional jazz musician -- I've since moved on to things that interest me far more than improvising over the Real Book. But I'm just stating facts. Waltz into any club in any serious jazz city like NYC, Boston, or Paris, ask to play, and see what happens when a tune is called out in a certain key, and you pipe up and say, "Uh, I only know that one in __. Can we do that instead?" Once is maybe fine, but after two or three and they'll tell you to get off the stage, because you're not a "real" jazz musician. The gate-keeping is real. Again, not defending it. I want to make it clear that I think it's fucking stupid. But this is reality. Period ;)

microtherion 8y ago

> Jazz musician here. Ah, but are you a VOCALIST? In my experience: * Instrumentalists tend to have a certain baseline of competence when they show up at jam sessions. Vocalists are more variable. * Possibly because of that reason, vocalists sometimes are held to stricter standards than instrumentalists. > This practice is absolutely standard. You are way off base. You may be moving in different circles than I do, and may assume that all of Jazz works the same way. > If you can't play equally well in all keys, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. "good" is not a binary thing. I don't think I've ever met a pianist who was truly indifferent to what key to play in (Generally they prefer flat keys to sharp keys, and fewer flats to more). And vocalists should know how a song fits in their range. > If you resist on principle (where the hell are you getting this?) It's all about the power dynamics. I've seen refusals to sight-transpose all the time. > Jazz has a long tradition on being a pretty hardcore meritocracy Jazz (like many institutions that hide behind "meritocracy"), also has a long tradition of cliquish behavior. > PS no one is gonna call out F#. They might call out Gb though. We always err to the side of flat keys, not sharps (horns like flat keys more). … which would tend to contradict your claim above that good jazz musicians can play equally well in all keys, wouldn't it?

jacquesm 8y ago
They can play equally well, it just will not sound as good. Long time sax player here.
- yesenadam 8y ago
  I don't think that's what "equally well" means!
  - Zuider 8y ago
    An application of the principle of intellectual charity would have gone a long way here. As a musician, I understood the OP to mean that even though a player may be able to play with equal facility in any key, the instrument will sound better or worse depending on the key.

lostgame 8y ago

Okay, but what you’re saying is hardly relevant to OP’s post, and you’re also limiting the entire grand sphere of music to a single genre that is well-known for requiring some of the most technically proficient artists in the world. You, sir, as the farthest thing from the example. I play sax in two concert bands and everyone gets their own, and previously transposed, music. If someone doesn’t they’re reasonably pissed. The musical world is not your little jazz bubble. It’s huge. And most people prefer transposed music.

rewgs 8y ago
I'm not "limiting the entire grand sphere of music." OP brought up improvising over standards, which brings to mind the bop/post-bop/"straight-ahead" jazz world, does it not? It definitely doesn't bring up concert bands. Obviously concert bands need their music -- it's highly composed, a larger ensemble, unlike the small quartets or quintets which are the context at hand. And yes, I'm well aware that the musical world is not "my little jazz bubble" (not mine -- read my other replies, I left that world for a reason). Sorry I somehow gave the impression that I'm some closed-minded curmudgeon. I'm actually anything but.

jdietrich 8y ago

It's important to note that jazz musicians tend to think as much in terms of relative harmonic and melodic movement as absolute pitch. I have a decent repertoire of standards, but I honestly couldn't tell you what key any of those tunes were written in. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numeral_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numeral_analysis You're possibly being a bit harsh, but only a bit - being able to transpose on the fly is a fundamental skill in jazz, akin to sight-reading in classical music. I can't sight-read particularly well and would embarrass myself in a classical rehearsal, but I can instantly transpose a lead sheet into any key and I would expect the same of anyone who expects to be called a jazz musician rather than a jazz student.

rewgs 8y ago
Thanks for pointing that out -- that's such a cleaner way of presenting the argument I was trying to make. Doh. Yes, when I was learning standards, I learned them by harmonic analysis, not by literally learning them in all 12 keys. If you know that it's ii-V-I, any reasonably good musician should be able to do that in all 12 keys off the bat. Thus, you simultaneously know the tune better, and the problem of transposing disappears. Well said!

trocado 8y ago

Guitarrist here, played hundreds or thousands of standards gigs. It's true that you can assume that good musicians will play a tune in any given key. However, I think in the real world nobody plays equally well in all keys. Also, even for instrumentalists, things don't lay the same way in different keys. Sometimes people intentionally call tunes in uncommon keys to force them off the beaten path, which is telling. I think singers should be able to sing in all keys, just like everybody else. That said, in a jam session, student practice or other informal setting it's recommended that the singer brings sheet music for everyone for other keys than the "usual one". Also nowadays people will reach for their cell phone and "real book" app. On the other hand, I won't be caught reading standards off the paper in public, so there's that too.