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This is a really nice article. "usually ..... A is 440hz". The 'usually' here is an interesting topic by itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch htt

This is a really nice article. "usually ..... A is 440hz". The 'usually' here is an interesting topic by itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch Anyway, I do have some questions: - regarding the universalness of this. Is it (the transposing of instruments) like this everywhere or is it different in some parts of the world? (some things differ wildly, like the whole 'fixed-do' versus 'movable-do' thing. - If I look at a score written for an alto sax, How can I tell which note is meant ? - In jazz, people learn a standard in a certain key, and when that tune is called, it's called together with a key, usually to adapt to some constraint (like the singer's vocal range). The musicians mostly can adapt on-the-fly. Is there something similar in classical music ? (an example would be to transpose Beethoven's 9th from Dm to Em)

klez 8y ago
> If I look at a score written for an alto sax, How can I tell which note is meant ? If it's a part for an Alto sax you can usually assume it's in Eb.
tomcam 8y ago
1. Universality of transposition: These conventions apply wherever people use western instruments. 2. Alto sax is always in the key of E flat. That means the note called A flat played by an alto sax would be C on the piano. Likewise tenor is always in the key of B flat. A huge advantage to this arrangement is that the fingering is the same no matter which instrument you are playing; that means it is up to the composer to transpose notes as appropriate. The saxophone family is amazingly cohesive and consistent because Adolphe Sax invented it in one fell swoop. 3. Well-trained classical musicians can transpose at will. I read a story by the composer/pianist Andre Previn whose touring orchestra was late to a concert hall due to the bus driver getting lost. He was playing the piano in a concerto. What he didn’t know was that the entire piano had detuned up half a step. It meant that The moment he sat down to play a concerto in C minor he was therefore playing in C sharp minor. The orchestra caught this immediately and everyone transposed up for the rest of the concert – on the fly. Edit: I mysteriously screwed up keys of alto and tenor sax, both of which I play. Idiocy caught by klez and duly corrected.
- klez 8y ago
  > Alto sax is always in the key of A flat. That means the note called A flat played by an alto sax would be C on the piano. Likewise tenor is always in the key of E flat. Uh? Alto sax is in Eb and tenor is in Bb.
  - tomcam 8y ago
    Thanks for the correction. I play sax. You are right of course. WTF is wrong with me?
- toolslive 8y ago
  2. same fingering... So the C written conveys more a fingering than a pitch and the actual pitch depends on the instrument at hand. 3. Lovely anecdote, but wasn't it simpler if the pianist transposed ?
  - njonsson 8y ago
    Simpler, yes, in the sense that just one instrument (the soloist) would have to play notes they were not prepared to play. But a concerto (typically a long piece for one or more solo instruments accompanied by orchestra) showcases the solo instrument, both by exposing it and by demanding much from the soloist’s technique and interpretive powers. It’s a shorter order for the orchestra to adapt than for the soloist to do so.
- yesenadam 8y ago
  Alto sax is always in the key of E flat. That means the note called A flat played by an alto sax would be C on the piano. This corrected version still isn't right...
  - rewgs 8y ago
    Yeah, that's a pretty confusing way of saying that, regardless of the key, the Alto reads a major 6th above concert.
microtherion 8y ago
> [In Jazz] when that tune is called, it's called together with a key, usually to adapt to some constraint (like the singer's vocal range). The musicians mostly can adapt on-the-fly. As an aside, this is not a safe assumption and not a good habit in my opinion. If you rely on a particular key, bring properly transposed lead sheets for that particular key. - Some musicians may not be able to transpose on the fly. - Some musicians may not play as well if they need to transpose. - Some musicians may resist such requests on principle. If a vocalist can't be bothered to properly prepare their sheet music, it's often a signal that they haven't properly prepared on other respects. And they're liable to call crazy keys like F# major.
- rewgs 8y ago
  Jazz musician here. This practice is absolutely standard. You are way off base. If you can't transpose on the fly, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. If you can't play equally well in all keys, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. If you resist on principle (where the hell are you getting this?), then you will be called out and probably asked to leave. But that never happens due to the previous two points. Jazz has a long tradition on being a pretty hardcore meritocracy, on the grounds of achieving freedom while improvising over a tune. A group can only play as well as its weakest link, and that's no fun. So we take fun very seriously and practice our asses off so that, when the time comes, we can do amazing things together. PS no one is gonna call out F#. They might call out Gb though. We always err to the side of flat keys, not sharps (horns like flat keys more).
  - yesenadam 8y ago
    Another jazz musician here. (jazz pianist for 30+ years) If you can't transpose on the fly, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. Well, there's transposing and transposing. Transposing up/down a tone, semitone, fourth, fifth usually isn't too hard, depending on the song and tempo. But transposing some tunes by some intervals is very tricky. Most people have, I suspect, not practised doing that much, because there's no need. (No need at all if you don't play with singers.) Some jazz musicians practise playing tunes in every key, but a small minority, I believe. (And then you wouldn't be 'transposing on the fly' but doing something you've practised.) Being able to play tunes in one key is enough. But saying what you said so dogmatically sounds ridiculous to me. (I mean really..if someone can't, say, play Stella by Starlight in E 'on the fly' you'd tell them "You're not a good jazz musician. Period."?!) If you can't play equally well in all keys, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. That's just rubbish. I'm not sure who you're trying to impress or why, but what you say just sounds wrong. And so arrogant: "You are way off base" "Period." "where the hell are you getting this?" etc. Everything the GP said sounded right to me. Read it again - you weren't really responding to what they said at all, but something else. It seems you felt insulted or something, I don't know why.
ken 8y ago
> Is it (the transposing of instruments) like this everywhere or is it different in some parts of the world? Japanese flutes are transposing. The scales and keys are all numeric, instead of the alphabetic system that western music uses. For example, my #6 flute (western: "B flat") sounds 2 half-steps lower than a #8 flute ("C"). A piece might be written to start on note #4 (and not say what absolute pitch #4 means), so it would sound different depending on what flute you're playing. > The musicians mostly can adapt on-the-fly. Is there something similar in classical music ? When I played the cello when I was young, I remember having some sheet music put in front of me once, and being asked to play it in a different key ("up a third" or something) as part of an ensemble. It wasn't especially fast or complex music, but that was a skill that was apparently expected of a high school amateur. It's not as hard as it sounds, but it's also something we never really practiced. Reasons I can think of would be when working with a soloist who has a particular vocal range, or if you find a piece that's not written for your instrument in particular (e.g., piano score to string quartet). I don't think anyone transposes a piece like Beethoven's 9th. When you want an entire symphony to transpose (usually up to "sound brighter", or down to emulate baroque period instruments), you just tune to a different "A".
cmroanirgo 8y ago
> regarding the universalness of this. Is it ... like this everywhere or is it different in some parts of the world? Many parts of the world use a term called 'Modal Music' (greece, turkey, arabic,...) and it's rather unlike the western one. Although I've limited experience of it, you could say that they use the note names (do, re, me, fa, so, la, te) as absolute notes and the 'modes' are named scales that also incorporate music sequences. So you might have a song written in Rast, but the tuning of your instrument (which allows overtones and quarter notes) might be tuned to something else. As a musician you're expected to change instrument or transpose on the fly. > If I look at a score written for an alto sax, How can I tell which note is meant ? If it's for Alto sax it's already transposed for the instrument in the score (Eb, from memory). Looking at an orchestral score, you'll see various instruments appearing to play different notes, but due to tuning they'll come out sounding the same note. > In jazz, people learn a standard in a certain key... Is there something similar in classical music ? Typically not. Although the musicians themselves sometimes have the ability to do it, classical isn't transposed to suit vocalists.
- benterris 8y ago
  > Typically not. Although the musicians themselves sometimes have the ability to do it, classical isn't transposed to suit vocalists. Actually it is, classical pianists accompanists are supposed to know how to sight-transpose a piece to fit a singer's range - for melody, songs and lieder, usually not opera. Only pianists though, you can't ask an orchestra to transpose !
tunesmith 8y ago
For your last question, not really. To see why, you have to look at the distinction between the composition and the arrangement. Jazz charts are usually just the composition. The arrangement is left up to the performers, which gives you a lot of flexibility in transposition (and instrumentation, and tempo, and feel, etc etc). Classical music is usually the composition and the arrangement. So if you transpose, you're more likely to run into problems where certain notes are no longer physically possible to play for certain instruments. Even with single-instrument classical pieces, for instance piano, compositions are very much written to be "pianistic" and fit into the piano hand in certain ways. There are definitely sections in advanced piano pieces that would far more difficult (if not impossible) to play if they were in a different key. Even with jazz piano, while a jazz pianist might be comfortable playing a standard in every key, they've got figures and riffs that they're only going to play in certain keys, because of how they're physically shaped. For a dumb example, you can't transpose a glissando from C to Db. (Dumb since a gliss is rarely appropriate.)
- hammock 8y ago
  Depends how fast you can play a scale :)

klez 8y ago

> If I look at a score written for an alto sax, How can I tell which note is meant ? If it's a part for an Alto sax you can usually assume it's in Eb.

tomcam 8y ago

1. Universality of transposition: These conventions apply wherever people use western instruments. 2. Alto sax is always in the key of E flat. That means the note called A flat played by an alto sax would be C on the piano. Likewise tenor is always in the key of B flat. A huge advantage to this arrangement is that the fingering is the same no matter which instrument you are playing; that means it is up to the composer to transpose notes as appropriate. The saxophone family is amazingly cohesive and consistent because Adolphe Sax invented it in one fell swoop. 3. Well-trained classical musicians can transpose at will. I read a story by the composer/pianist Andre Previn whose touring orchestra was late to a concert hall due to the bus driver getting lost. He was playing the piano in a concerto. What he didn’t know was that the entire piano had detuned up half a step. It meant that The moment he sat down to play a concerto in C minor he was therefore playing in C sharp minor. The orchestra caught this immediately and everyone transposed up for the rest of the concert – on the fly. Edit: I mysteriously screwed up keys of alto and tenor sax, both of which I play. Idiocy caught by klez and duly corrected.

klez 8y ago
> Alto sax is always in the key of A flat. That means the note called A flat played by an alto sax would be C on the piano. Likewise tenor is always in the key of E flat. Uh? Alto sax is in Eb and tenor is in Bb.
- tomcam 8y ago
  Thanks for the correction. I play sax. You are right of course. WTF is wrong with me?
toolslive 8y ago
2. same fingering... So the C written conveys more a fingering than a pitch and the actual pitch depends on the instrument at hand. 3. Lovely anecdote, but wasn't it simpler if the pianist transposed ?
- njonsson 8y ago
  Simpler, yes, in the sense that just one instrument (the soloist) would have to play notes they were not prepared to play. But a concerto (typically a long piece for one or more solo instruments accompanied by orchestra) showcases the solo instrument, both by exposing it and by demanding much from the soloist’s technique and interpretive powers. It’s a shorter order for the orchestra to adapt than for the soloist to do so.
yesenadam 8y ago
Alto sax is always in the key of E flat. That means the note called A flat played by an alto sax would be C on the piano. This corrected version still isn't right...
- rewgs 8y ago
  Yeah, that's a pretty confusing way of saying that, regardless of the key, the Alto reads a major 6th above concert.

microtherion 8y ago

> [In Jazz] when that tune is called, it's called together with a key, usually to adapt to some constraint (like the singer's vocal range). The musicians mostly can adapt on-the-fly. As an aside, this is not a safe assumption and not a good habit in my opinion. If you rely on a particular key, bring properly transposed lead sheets for that particular key. - Some musicians may not be able to transpose on the fly. - Some musicians may not play as well if they need to transpose. - Some musicians may resist such requests on principle. If a vocalist can't be bothered to properly prepare their sheet music, it's often a signal that they haven't properly prepared on other respects. And they're liable to call crazy keys like F# major.

rewgs 8y ago
Jazz musician here. This practice is absolutely standard. You are way off base. If you can't transpose on the fly, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. If you can't play equally well in all keys, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. If you resist on principle (where the hell are you getting this?), then you will be called out and probably asked to leave. But that never happens due to the previous two points. Jazz has a long tradition on being a pretty hardcore meritocracy, on the grounds of achieving freedom while improvising over a tune. A group can only play as well as its weakest link, and that's no fun. So we take fun very seriously and practice our asses off so that, when the time comes, we can do amazing things together. PS no one is gonna call out F#. They might call out Gb though. We always err to the side of flat keys, not sharps (horns like flat keys more).
- yesenadam 8y ago
  Another jazz musician here. (jazz pianist for 30+ years) If you can't transpose on the fly, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. Well, there's transposing and transposing. Transposing up/down a tone, semitone, fourth, fifth usually isn't too hard, depending on the song and tempo. But transposing some tunes by some intervals is very tricky. Most people have, I suspect, not practised doing that much, because there's no need. (No need at all if you don't play with singers.) Some jazz musicians practise playing tunes in every key, but a small minority, I believe. (And then you wouldn't be 'transposing on the fly' but doing something you've practised.) Being able to play tunes in one key is enough. But saying what you said so dogmatically sounds ridiculous to me. (I mean really..if someone can't, say, play Stella by Starlight in E 'on the fly' you'd tell them "You're not a good jazz musician. Period."?!) If you can't play equally well in all keys, you're not a good jazz musician. Period. That's just rubbish. I'm not sure who you're trying to impress or why, but what you say just sounds wrong. And so arrogant: "You are way off base" "Period." "where the hell are you getting this?" etc. Everything the GP said sounded right to me. Read it again - you weren't really responding to what they said at all, but something else. It seems you felt insulted or something, I don't know why.

ken 8y ago

> Is it (the transposing of instruments) like this everywhere or is it different in some parts of the world? Japanese flutes are transposing. The scales and keys are all numeric, instead of the alphabetic system that western music uses. For example, my #6 flute (western: "B flat") sounds 2 half-steps lower than a #8 flute ("C"). A piece might be written to start on note #4 (and not say what absolute pitch #4 means), so it would sound different depending on what flute you're playing. > The musicians mostly can adapt on-the-fly. Is there something similar in classical music ? When I played the cello when I was young, I remember having some sheet music put in front of me once, and being asked to play it in a different key ("up a third" or something) as part of an ensemble. It wasn't especially fast or complex music, but that was a skill that was apparently expected of a high school amateur. It's not as hard as it sounds, but it's also something we never really practiced. Reasons I can think of would be when working with a soloist who has a particular vocal range, or if you find a piece that's not written for your instrument in particular (e.g., piano score to string quartet). I don't think anyone transposes a piece like Beethoven's 9th. When you want an entire symphony to transpose (usually up to "sound brighter", or down to emulate baroque period instruments), you just tune to a different "A".

cmroanirgo 8y ago

> regarding the universalness of this. Is it ... like this everywhere or is it different in some parts of the world? Many parts of the world use a term called 'Modal Music' (greece, turkey, arabic,...) and it's rather unlike the western one. Although I've limited experience of it, you could say that they use the note names (do, re, me, fa, so, la, te) as absolute notes and the 'modes' are named scales that also incorporate music sequences. So you might have a song written in Rast, but the tuning of your instrument (which allows overtones and quarter notes) might be tuned to something else. As a musician you're expected to change instrument or transpose on the fly. > If I look at a score written for an alto sax, How can I tell which note is meant ? If it's for Alto sax it's already transposed for the instrument in the score (Eb, from memory). Looking at an orchestral score, you'll see various instruments appearing to play different notes, but due to tuning they'll come out sounding the same note. > In jazz, people learn a standard in a certain key... Is there something similar in classical music ? Typically not. Although the musicians themselves sometimes have the ability to do it, classical isn't transposed to suit vocalists.

benterris 8y ago
> Typically not. Although the musicians themselves sometimes have the ability to do it, classical isn't transposed to suit vocalists. Actually it is, classical pianists accompanists are supposed to know how to sight-transpose a piece to fit a singer's range - for melody, songs and lieder, usually not opera. Only pianists though, you can't ask an orchestra to transpose !

tunesmith 8y ago

For your last question, not really. To see why, you have to look at the distinction between the composition and the arrangement. Jazz charts are usually just the composition. The arrangement is left up to the performers, which gives you a lot of flexibility in transposition (and instrumentation, and tempo, and feel, etc etc). Classical music is usually the composition and the arrangement. So if you transpose, you're more likely to run into problems where certain notes are no longer physically possible to play for certain instruments. Even with single-instrument classical pieces, for instance piano, compositions are very much written to be "pianistic" and fit into the piano hand in certain ways. There are definitely sections in advanced piano pieces that would far more difficult (if not impossible) to play if they were in a different key. Even with jazz piano, while a jazz pianist might be comfortable playing a standard in every key, they've got figures and riffs that they're only going to play in certain keys, because of how they're physically shaped. For a dumb example, you can't transpose a glissando from C to Db. (Dumb since a gliss is rarely appropriate.)

hammock 8y ago
Depends how fast you can play a scale :)