18 ms·

The middleman just becomes the exchanges (who also have to deal with payment processors).

by Qworg 8y ago

jononor 8y ago
There are many exchanges though, and their brand is not associated with how people spend the crypto/money received. And assuming that people don't hold money in online wallets, they can freeze the asset either. So quite different from the Mastercard and Patreon case.
xrd 8y ago
Respectfully, I totally disagree. First, many exchanges (at least in the US) allow you to purchase with bank transfer, not a credit card. That completely changes the context of the risk profile. Credit card companies are much more concerned about fraud since CC's are so much easier to perpetrate fraudulent transactions. Its relevant for any kind of "riskier" transaction, like those on something like Patreon. More importantly, once you have purchased cryptocurrency, you can easily transfer to a wallet which you control. Install MetaMask, then move currency to your new wallet on your Mac/Windows/PC. If you keep everything in Coinbase, you are right you are subject to their rules when you attempt to transfer money. If you keep funds in your own wallet, you are 100% free to transfer money to ANYONE without restriction. This is what people mean when they say "decentralization."
- smsm42 8y ago
  You are free to transfer bitcoins to anyone, maybe (provided you don't lose your wallet). But once you want to convert BTC to USD, you'd still have to play by the rules set by the banking system. Maybe you could slip under the radar if you deal with small amounts, but once it is serious, there would be checks you'd have to pass.
  - xrd 8y ago
    That's a really good point, agreed. It seems like, however, you will be more subject to taxation issues (Coinbase is likely going to report big transactions to the government) than to arbitrary evaluations (that lead to frozen accounts) made by payment processors. Put another way, I think it will be relatively easy to do something like Patreon in cryptocurrency. Ingress will be simple. Converting that into a fiat currency will be hard, as you say. But, if all of sudden I can start taking trips to Thailand and only need USD to buy the ticket, but can do everything else with crypto, then it will matter a lot less. And, this comment made me think that's more and more possible: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18530642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18530642
    - smsm42 8y ago
      > It seems like, however, you will be more subject to taxation issues (Coinbase is likely going to report big transactions to the government) than to arbitrary evaluations (that lead to frozen accounts) made by payment processors. Definitely both. Banks have tons of "know your client" requirements. And in most cases, you wouldn't be large enough client so they'd bother to even call you before freezing your account on slightest suspicion.
      - xrd 8y ago
        I stand corrected. It does seem like you are constrained in either case. Until you can do everything inside one of the cryptocurrency ecosystems, you will be indeed subject to the whims of the current financial system. That control bleeds into everything it touches.

The middleman just becomes the exchanges (who also have to deal with payment processors).

by Qworg 8y ago

The middleman just becomes the exchanges (who also have to deal with payment processors).

There are many exchanges though, and their brand is not associated with how people spend the crypto/money received. And assuming that people don't hold money in online wallets, they can freeze the asset either. So quite different from the Mastercard and Patreon case.

xrd 8y ago

Respectfully, I totally disagree. First, many exchanges (at least in the US) allow you to purchase with bank transfer, not a credit card. That completely changes the context of the risk profile. Credit card companies are much more concerned about fraud since CC's are so much easier to perpetrate fraudulent transactions. Its relevant for any kind of "riskier" transaction, like those on something like Patreon. More importantly, once you have purchased cryptocurrency, you can easily transfer to a wallet which you control. Install MetaMask, then move currency to your new wallet on your Mac/Windows/PC. If you keep everything in Coinbase, you are right you are subject to their rules when you attempt to transfer money. If you keep funds in your own wallet, you are 100% free to transfer money to ANYONE without restriction. This is what people mean when they say "decentralization."

smsm42 8y ago
You are free to transfer bitcoins to anyone, maybe (provided you don't lose your wallet). But once you want to convert BTC to USD, you'd still have to play by the rules set by the banking system. Maybe you could slip under the radar if you deal with small amounts, but once it is serious, there would be checks you'd have to pass.
- xrd 8y ago
  That's a really good point, agreed. It seems like, however, you will be more subject to taxation issues (Coinbase is likely going to report big transactions to the government) than to arbitrary evaluations (that lead to frozen accounts) made by payment processors. Put another way, I think it will be relatively easy to do something like Patreon in cryptocurrency. Ingress will be simple. Converting that into a fiat currency will be hard, as you say. But, if all of sudden I can start taking trips to Thailand and only need USD to buy the ticket, but can do everything else with crypto, then it will matter a lot less. And, this comment made me think that's more and more possible: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18530642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18530642
  - smsm42 8y ago
    > It seems like, however, you will be more subject to taxation issues (Coinbase is likely going to report big transactions to the government) than to arbitrary evaluations (that lead to frozen accounts) made by payment processors. Definitely both. Banks have tons of "know your client" requirements. And in most cases, you wouldn't be large enough client so they'd bother to even call you before freezing your account on slightest suspicion.
    - xrd 8y ago
      I stand corrected. It does seem like you are constrained in either case. Until you can do everything inside one of the cryptocurrency ecosystems, you will be indeed subject to the whims of the current financial system. That control bleeds into everything it touches.