12 ms·

The Link Between Inflammation and Depression?

169 points by Elof 8y ago

jeklj 8y ago
Not only we don’t understand the mechanism causing depression, we don’t really understand (as far as I am aware) why medications work or don’t work. I deal with mild depression sometimes, but this scares me off of considering medication for it. I’ve encountered so many horror stories of withdrawal symptoms... you really need to be at a point of desperation to consider drugs for it, imo.
- gumby 8y ago
  Sadly this is true. "depression", like so many diseases, is named after its symptoms rather than etiology. So if we even have an effective drug, it will only be effective on a subset of the sufferers. Plus we understand so little macro neurochemistry we don't even understand which apparently correlated biomarkers are causal and which are consequential. The same problem exists with other neurological diseases such as Alzheimers. With depression, as it seems to affect higher function, we even have difficulty (and treatment affordances) with non-chemical stimuli. Still, it's very much worth working on -- people are suffering such serious debilitation.
  - Elof 8y ago
    I’ve benefited greatly from various medications combined with non-chemical strategies. When I first considered medication I talked with my Doctor, talked with some friends that are Doctors, and did my own research and every resource came up with the same basic info, we don’t actually know that much... Add onto that finding a combination of things that ‘worked’ was a trial and error process that took over a year, all while I was dealing with my mental health issues. Sadly so many people in a similar situation don’t have the flexibility, access and/or support to go down the path that I did. Often they will opt out because of the stigma associated with having mental health issues. The fact that we know so little leaves tons of room for improvement in addressing mental health, but I worry that we have a very long road to giant leaps in addressing mental health unless we can destigmatize mental disabilities (and other neurological conditions)
- finaliteration 8y ago
  I think a larger problem is that it’s such a crapshoot about which treatments will work for a given individual, pharmaceutical or not. It took me about 10 therapists with varying backgrounds before I finally found one that would help. It also took me trying several different medications to find a combination that’s actually effective. It’s a lot of work and effort, and most people suffering through depression, anxiety, or another debilitating mental health disorder don’t have the energy to keep trying over and over again after failing. For me it was actually a matter of life or death and needing to keep going for my family that drove me to keep trying.
  - Elof 8y ago
    I had a very similar experience to what you’re describing and most other folks I know that have ‘figured out’ a treatment share a similar experience as well (more info in a comment below).
  - InGodsName 8y ago
    what worked in your case?
    - Elof 8y ago
      I have bipolar disorder and take a stimulant, a mood stabilizer, and sometimes an antidepressant. I’ve done my best to make my personal and professional work schedule comfortable, do mindful breathing exercises, take almost all my meeting outside and walking, and try to exercize 3 times a week. It’s a lot to manage while having a family but it’s very worth it IMO
    - finaliteration 8y ago
      I suffer from PTSD due to childhood trauma which is ultimately the cause of my anxiety, depression, mood swings, etc,. Right now I’m seeing a therapist who specializes in trauma and going through EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) treatment. I’ve also taken Wellbutrin (anti-depressant) and Lamictal (mood stabilizer) for the last 18 months or so. I also just have to constantly keep busy. I fill my time with work and activities with my family. I rarely take downtime because if I do the dread and flashbacks rear their ugly heads.
- ultimape 8y ago
  My first experience with an antidepressant left me feeling quite ill. Ironically, its one of the ones that gets prescribed often because it has little side-effects. Turned out that this wasn't true, and I was one of the small percentage who experienced Discontinuation Syndrome (https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/370338 https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/370338). Having such a bad reaction to it lead me down a wild goose chase toward finding out the way my body processes serotonin ala a gene test, helped me figure out what was causing the depression to begin with. Another reply here talks about how it seems to be a crapshoot for finding effective drugs and a lot of trial and error. I think that there may be promise in doing drug targeting genetic tests and possibly microbiome sampling as a way to help people avoid the run-around. In my case, knowing this ahead of time would have helped me avoid a lot of suffering and 3 years of obsessively searching for answers.
  - atomical 8y ago
    Genetic tests seem pointless. It's cheaper and faster to take the drug and find out if one is a responder.
    - aaavl2821 8y ago
      I think what s/he's referring to are tests for mutations in certain liver enzymes that are known to interfere with a drugs function. These are cheap and quick tests (these aren't sequencing based tests) and quite good at predicting non-responders On the other hand it can take 4-6 weeks to see if someone responds to a drug, and the drug can cause adverse events in addition to not treating the disease So in this case it is cheaper, faster and safer to take the test before prescribing
    - volkl48 8y ago
      The side effects of many of the medications can be quite harsh and severely affect your mental state when they don't agree with you. The most obvious example of such would be the significant number of people who experience suicidal ideation or commit it/make attempts as a result of going on certain medications. But at the less extreme end, you're likely looking at least a month or two, more likely 3 or 4 for each medication attempt. That's going on, taking it for long enough to have an effect, going back off, repeat. With how severe the side effects can be for many, that's enough time to lose a job, fail out of college, etc. And you're asking them to potentially spend years in that cycle to maybe fine something that works.
- astazangasta 8y ago
  Most medications DON'T work for most people. For example here[1] is a meta-analysis from 2004 of the top 6 antidepressants which finds that 80% of the effect is achieved by placebo, and the remaining effect is statistically, but not clinically, significant (that is, the effect size is tiny). Here[2] is another follow-up that shows that there may be effects only in the most severely-depressed patients. In addition the theoretical foundation of many drugs is lacking - the seratonin theory underlying SSRIs, for example, is now widely rejected (although SSRIs continue to be prescribed for some reason probably relating to drug company profits). Given the well-known addictive nature of most anti-depressants, I have always advised my friends to steer away from them, or wean themselves off, and favor talking therapies instead. Everyone else should do the same. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228550299_The_Emperor's_New_Drugs_An_Analysis_of_Antidepressant_Medication_Data_Submitted_to_the_US_Food_and_Drug_Administration https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228550299_The_Emper... [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050045 https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...
  - DanBC 8y ago
    Do you know you're listing a paper widely described as one of the most controversial psychology papers? Here's a response, using the same data, but getting different results: https://annals-general-psychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1744-859X-12-26 https://annals-general-psychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles... > The results reported here conclude the debate on the efficacy of antidepressants and suggest that antidepressants are clearly superior to placebo. They also suggest that baseline severity cannot be utilized to dictate whether the treatment should include medication or not. Suggestions like this, proposed by guidelines or institutions (e.g. the NICE), should be considered mistaken.
    - astazangasta 8y ago
      I'd expect any paper that shits on an entire field and especially on a massively profitable industry to be controversial. Here is Kirsch's reply to Fountolakis's paper, by the way: https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/15/8/1193/659638 https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/15/8/1193/659638
- InGodsName 8y ago
  Did you try Withania, i wonder why it's never prescribed bu anyone: https://examine.com/supplements/ashwagandha/ https://examine.com/supplements/ashwagandha/
- perseusmandate 8y ago
  Having gone off antidepressants cold turkey 4+ times withdrawal stuff is wildly overblown, which is corroborated by almost all the literature It probably has more to do with a relapse back into depressive symptoms than anything in most cases
rabidrat 8y ago
I have found for myself that taking Ibuprofen eases both anxiety and depression. It's not a cure but it surprises me how much of a mental effect a mild analgesic has.
- mettamage 8y ago
  Would anyone have an idea why this could potentially be?
  - jganetsk 8y ago
    https://www.mdedge.com/fedprac/article/81232/mental-health/nsaids-may-reduce-depression https://www.mdedge.com/fedprac/article/81232/mental-health/n...
    - fromthestart 8y ago
      I'd caution anyone making a link between depression and NSAIDs from that paper. Most of those people probably climbed out of depression because they specifically administered pain medication to subjects with osteoarthritis. Suddenly being rid of chronic pain can be liberating.
      - jjb123 8y ago
        Rethinking this relationship is a major point of the original thread/article.
InGodsName 8y ago
We don't know about severity of the depression when we say depression. My friend has racing thoughts, feeling tired all time, unable to move, unable to think. Negatives thoughts amplifying to point where nothing no longer makes sense. Can such depression be treated? When she was born, she had a serological conflict. 1. She first recognized it at age 8. 2. Now she's 18 3. Tried sucide at 16 It's not like she doesn't want to get better. She has everything good going for her but her body/brain isn't helping her. Now, this article makes me wonder if she had this depression since birth and only understood it by 8. And wether she is still affected by antibodies eating out her cells? Tho i don't have any real sister but she is like my own sister. I am willing to spend all my money to see her cured from this depression. But nothing has worked so far.
- z3t4 8y ago
  i think its warranted to go see a doctor.
- smnplk 8y ago
  Pardon me for saying something she has already tried. But here are some ideas. - put her on a strict meat & veggies only diet (without nightshades) - Look into low dose naltrexon therapy, there is a LDN facebook group where you can ask questions. Oh and of course, visit many doctors and ask them about treatment.
- wolco 8y ago
  I wonder if changing the gut bacteria might provide her a route to health. A serological impact would deprive her of bacteria that could reduce imflamation
- dan_dev_this 8y ago
  Take a look at neurofeedback, I had a friend with deep depression who was able to recover with that.
- ACC_investor 8y ago
  You could have her try a zero-carb (carnivore) diet. Nothing but beef, salt and water for a month. Probably won't work but considering all the anecdotal evidence and the fact that it's cheap and easy, I'd say it's worth a shot.
Bucephalus355 8y ago
This is very important. It’s not yet fully understood, but something is missing yet in our understanding of inflammation. It’s not everything, just like antibiotics weren’t everything, but progress here will mean curing an incredible amount of human suffering. The book linked below, a late 2015 text on Molecular Neuropharmacology, is fascinating. Every chapter has a mention of inflammation and usually ibuprofen. It’s that important. Particularly fascinating is the connection with ADHD, Parkinson’s, and Schizophrenia. All of the diseases have something to do with dysregulation of Dopamine. In particular, it seems like Ibuprofen helps with reducing the effects of Dopamine overload, which is essentially what Schizophrenia is. It’s an inflammation of the mind that is somewhat similar to how we now think sugar causes harm/inflammation. Anyway this overload eventually can lead to underload, or Parkinson’s. ADHD individuals are often overloaded as well due to the treatment with stimulant medication (which is good but can be abused). I’m not kidding when I say there are Nobel prizes being left on the table here right now. https://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Neuropharmacology-Foundation-Clinical-Neuroscience/dp/0071827692 https://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Neuropharmacology-Foundatio...
- auganov 8y ago
  Interesting definitely adding this to my reading list for self serving reasons. I independently came to similar ideas about inflammation, mostly because I have to take a lot of Ibuprofen for chronic pain and what works best is taking some preemptively on non painful days. That is, I always tried to think up more reasons for why this isn't a terrible idea.
  - 995533 8y ago
    Ibuprofen may cause ulcers, bleeding, or holes in the stomach or intestine.
    - giardini 8y ago
      Always possible, but I've taken taking 200 mg ibuprofen 2X per day for 30 years w/o a problem. I also take an 81 mg aspirin every night. I take turmeric and cinnamon with my coffee in the morning. If I get a bad headache I take two 325-mg aspirin also. I have no stomach problems unless I drink too much Starbucks coffee over a 3-day period.
ada1981 8y ago
I suffered from suicidal depression, anxiety, mania, psychosis, paranoia, panic attacks and more. I flirted with diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder to bipolar. My life was pretty out of control. I didn’t like the outcomes I saw of people who were on meds their entire life and I didn’t buy the story from mainstream psychiatry. I found MDMA therapy via an underground practice and it transformed my life over the course of a few session. I was able to get to the root of all symptoms and heal what was beneath. Combined with Holotropic Breathwork and NARM / somatic therapy for integration, this approach blew anything the psychiatrists were offering out of the water. I’ve been experimenting with CBD and it seems to offer and even deeper level of clarity and non-anxiety. No psychiatric meds, no symptoms and my creative and romantic life now has something to grown from - before this everything was in a constant cycle of boom and bust.
- cortesoft 8y ago
  I am very glad this worked for you, but isn't MDMA a psychiatric med?
  - egypturnash 8y ago
    It started as one but after it found broad use as a recreational drug it was made illegal. It's Schedule I in the US and illegal in most countries (source: wikipedia). Which is a shame because holy crap the one time I had MDMA sure broke me out of a major depression I'd been in for a couple decades.
  - ada1981 8y ago
    It’s currently in Phase 3 for PTSD after spending a couple decades in prohibition. It’s not a sanctioned medicine yet, and historically has been outside the bounds of western psychiatry. And when I mean no psychiatric meds I mean nothing ongoing.
    - partomniscient 8y ago
      Bit late to the thread, but here's a link to where I assume the poster is referring to: https://maps.org https://maps.org (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies)
andyidsinga 8y ago
so serendipitous - the other day ago I was putting down some wood flooring in my house and hurt my back a little - something that happens from time to time in exactly the same place - so I knew that I should get on top of it and take a couple of ibuprofen. So I take a the ibuprofen, and take a break for an a couple hours - and as I noticed the back pain go away - I also noticed a distinct improvement in my mood! I had the exact reaction described in the article "of course, your back doesn't hurt ..duh". The article makes me wonder if there is another explanation for the mood improvement ..
- brianwawok 8y ago
  The risk is your back is hurt because it’s damaged. It needs time to heal. Taking ibuprofen hides the pain but doesn’t fix the problem in MOST cases.
cageface 8y ago
One of the best things I've ever done for my mood is to switch to a plant based diet full of natural anti inflammatory foods. I noticed a big lift in my mood after the first week and it's stuck with me almost two years later. Check this video for more details: https://youtu.be/4xbNNxQZEgA https://youtu.be/4xbNNxQZEgA
- _up 8y ago
  Did you also eat less sugar/carbs? Because I think sugar is the main culprit.
  - cageface 8y ago
    Sugar and refined carbs can also cause inflammation but I cut those out of my diet years ago. I didn't see the real benefits until I switched to a plant based diet.
    - gnulinux 8y ago
      I don't want to be that guy again (I've been heavily downvoted in every nutrition threads I contributed in HN), please understand that I'm trying to learn and improve myself. But I'm curious how did you come up with a plant-based diet that's not high in sugar. As far as I know pretty much all (except very few) plant based food are very high in sugar. Especially most fruits have exorbitant amounts of fructose. I usually eat high fiber veggies (like broccoli, brussel sprouts, soybeans etc...) but it doesn't give much variety. Remember that most animal based food (eggs, most cheese, chicken, turkey, red meat, fish etc) are 0 sugar. Also, nuts are low carb, high fat but they're very high in Omega 6 (except walnut and some seeds like flaxseed) and there is some research indicating synergy between sugar and Omega 6 for inflammation (I can find the link if you want, but I'm too tired right now). I'm all for veganism but I can never find a suitable vegan cookbook. People say veganism is easy, as far as I'm concerned this is simply not true. If you go full vegan you have absolutely no choice other than soybeans to get adequate amount of protein. Any other protein source such as beans are very high in carbs (e.g. 600 cal of black beans have only 40g of protein (which is only 1/3 of my daily need as a bodybuilder) but have 116g of carbs only 30g of which fiber, in my book a very unhealthy food). And since you cannot supplement your diet with seafood, you have very few choices of Omega 3 sources (various seeds, acai berry, walnut come to mind). To make myself clear: I think vegan diet is efficient, sustainable and ethical. But there is simply no easy way to go full vegan and get enough macro nutrients (in particular protein, and fats) without getting a lot of sugar. I have a lot of problem with inflammation and even 5g of sugar is too much for me, so it seems like the only plant based food I can eat are soybeans and broccoli. Maybe I'm missing something. Care to help?
_up 8y ago
I am a huge fan of "Dr. Berg" on Youtube he helped me a lot with doing Keto/OMAD correct and reducing inflammation. He also has an interesting Video on depression. The 6 Causes of Depression: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV5OlaPZ6C4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV5OlaPZ6C4 Also fascinating is a lot of interesting medical knowledge he gathers by reading patent applications.
- _up 8y ago
  The 6 main causes he says are btw: Omega3, B12, Vit.D or B1 deficiency, too much Cortisol or Insulin Resistance.
david_ar 8y ago
I found Wikipedia to be more informative than this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickness_behavior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickness_behavior
imperio59 8y ago
This psychiatrist spouting off the "serotonin imbalance" marketing speak from big pharma like it's science is frightening. This has actually never been proven to exist, which is why every ad for SSRIs states "the way this drug is believed to work is...". And then there's all the terrible side effects they never tell you about before you start taking them, and the fact you likely won't be able to stop using them without horrible withdrawal symptoms... So much about psychiatry is still more akin to shamanism than actual science and medicine it's frightening.
- perseusmandate 8y ago
  SSRIs are known to have a substantial anti-inflammatory effect though, as well as other drugs like Wellbutrin. I don't know if you have actually used SSRIs but the stuff about withdrawal is wildly overblown. Believing scare mongering about terrible side-effects and dependence issues kept me severely depressed and is one of the biggest regrets of my life.
zzzeek 8y ago
kind of a long yakkety article and not much on tangibles. Yes there's a correlation between depression and inflammation, but there's a much bigger bucket of potential factors going on in this area: depression, sedentary lifestyle, sugar intake, obesity, inflammation, gut bacteria, visceral fat, and a whole lot more. As a clinical depression sufferer, if I change any one of those things, all the others change too. So yes keep looking into it but my own anecdotes and reading suggest there's a more complex ecosystem than just "inflamation == depression" going on.
- perseusmandate 8y ago
  There have been experiments directly relating the administration of inflammatory endotoxins to immediate depressive symptoms. All of the stuff you mentioned pertains to inflammation. If gut bacteria is disharmonious or not getting enough fiber it consumes intestinal mucous which creates inflammation
ENTP 8y ago
I was diagnosed with inflammation through having a mold intolerance. Taking cholestyramine and synapsin changed everything. The CFS dissipated and everything seemed to come alive. The main thing that changed though was my mind. Brain fog had gone and a much better mood.

169 points by Elof 8y ago

Not only we don’t understand the mechanism causing depression, we don’t really understand (as far as I am aware) why medications work or don’t work. I deal with mild depression sometimes, but this scares me off of considering medication for it. I’ve encountered so many horror stories of withdrawal symptoms... you really need to be at a point of desperation to consider drugs for it, imo.

gumby 8y ago
Sadly this is true. "depression", like so many diseases, is named after its symptoms rather than etiology. So if we even have an effective drug, it will only be effective on a subset of the sufferers. Plus we understand so little macro neurochemistry we don't even understand which apparently correlated biomarkers are causal and which are consequential. The same problem exists with other neurological diseases such as Alzheimers. With depression, as it seems to affect higher function, we even have difficulty (and treatment affordances) with non-chemical stimuli. Still, it's very much worth working on -- people are suffering such serious debilitation.
- Elof 8y ago
  I’ve benefited greatly from various medications combined with non-chemical strategies. When I first considered medication I talked with my Doctor, talked with some friends that are Doctors, and did my own research and every resource came up with the same basic info, we don’t actually know that much... Add onto that finding a combination of things that ‘worked’ was a trial and error process that took over a year, all while I was dealing with my mental health issues. Sadly so many people in a similar situation don’t have the flexibility, access and/or support to go down the path that I did. Often they will opt out because of the stigma associated with having mental health issues. The fact that we know so little leaves tons of room for improvement in addressing mental health, but I worry that we have a very long road to giant leaps in addressing mental health unless we can destigmatize mental disabilities (and other neurological conditions)
finaliteration 8y ago
I think a larger problem is that it’s such a crapshoot about which treatments will work for a given individual, pharmaceutical or not. It took me about 10 therapists with varying backgrounds before I finally found one that would help. It also took me trying several different medications to find a combination that’s actually effective. It’s a lot of work and effort, and most people suffering through depression, anxiety, or another debilitating mental health disorder don’t have the energy to keep trying over and over again after failing. For me it was actually a matter of life or death and needing to keep going for my family that drove me to keep trying.
- Elof 8y ago
  I had a very similar experience to what you’re describing and most other folks I know that have ‘figured out’ a treatment share a similar experience as well (more info in a comment below).
- InGodsName 8y ago
  what worked in your case?
  - Elof 8y ago
    I have bipolar disorder and take a stimulant, a mood stabilizer, and sometimes an antidepressant. I’ve done my best to make my personal and professional work schedule comfortable, do mindful breathing exercises, take almost all my meeting outside and walking, and try to exercize 3 times a week. It’s a lot to manage while having a family but it’s very worth it IMO
  - finaliteration 8y ago
    I suffer from PTSD due to childhood trauma which is ultimately the cause of my anxiety, depression, mood swings, etc,. Right now I’m seeing a therapist who specializes in trauma and going through EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) treatment. I’ve also taken Wellbutrin (anti-depressant) and Lamictal (mood stabilizer) for the last 18 months or so. I also just have to constantly keep busy. I fill my time with work and activities with my family. I rarely take downtime because if I do the dread and flashbacks rear their ugly heads.
ultimape 8y ago
My first experience with an antidepressant left me feeling quite ill. Ironically, its one of the ones that gets prescribed often because it has little side-effects. Turned out that this wasn't true, and I was one of the small percentage who experienced Discontinuation Syndrome (https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/370338 https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/370338). Having such a bad reaction to it lead me down a wild goose chase toward finding out the way my body processes serotonin ala a gene test, helped me figure out what was causing the depression to begin with. Another reply here talks about how it seems to be a crapshoot for finding effective drugs and a lot of trial and error. I think that there may be promise in doing drug targeting genetic tests and possibly microbiome sampling as a way to help people avoid the run-around. In my case, knowing this ahead of time would have helped me avoid a lot of suffering and 3 years of obsessively searching for answers.
- atomical 8y ago
  Genetic tests seem pointless. It's cheaper and faster to take the drug and find out if one is a responder.
  - aaavl2821 8y ago
    I think what s/he's referring to are tests for mutations in certain liver enzymes that are known to interfere with a drugs function. These are cheap and quick tests (these aren't sequencing based tests) and quite good at predicting non-responders On the other hand it can take 4-6 weeks to see if someone responds to a drug, and the drug can cause adverse events in addition to not treating the disease So in this case it is cheaper, faster and safer to take the test before prescribing
  - volkl48 8y ago
    The side effects of many of the medications can be quite harsh and severely affect your mental state when they don't agree with you. The most obvious example of such would be the significant number of people who experience suicidal ideation or commit it/make attempts as a result of going on certain medications. But at the less extreme end, you're likely looking at least a month or two, more likely 3 or 4 for each medication attempt. That's going on, taking it for long enough to have an effect, going back off, repeat. With how severe the side effects can be for many, that's enough time to lose a job, fail out of college, etc. And you're asking them to potentially spend years in that cycle to maybe fine something that works.
astazangasta 8y ago
Most medications DON'T work for most people. For example here[1] is a meta-analysis from 2004 of the top 6 antidepressants which finds that 80% of the effect is achieved by placebo, and the remaining effect is statistically, but not clinically, significant (that is, the effect size is tiny). Here[2] is another follow-up that shows that there may be effects only in the most severely-depressed patients. In addition the theoretical foundation of many drugs is lacking - the seratonin theory underlying SSRIs, for example, is now widely rejected (although SSRIs continue to be prescribed for some reason probably relating to drug company profits). Given the well-known addictive nature of most anti-depressants, I have always advised my friends to steer away from them, or wean themselves off, and favor talking therapies instead. Everyone else should do the same. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228550299_The_Emperor's_New_Drugs_An_Analysis_of_Antidepressant_Medication_Data_Submitted_to_the_US_Food_and_Drug_Administration https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228550299_The_Emper... [2] https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050045 https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...
- DanBC 8y ago
  Do you know you're listing a paper widely described as one of the most controversial psychology papers? Here's a response, using the same data, but getting different results: https://annals-general-psychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1744-859X-12-26 https://annals-general-psychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles... > The results reported here conclude the debate on the efficacy of antidepressants and suggest that antidepressants are clearly superior to placebo. They also suggest that baseline severity cannot be utilized to dictate whether the treatment should include medication or not. Suggestions like this, proposed by guidelines or institutions (e.g. the NICE), should be considered mistaken.
  - astazangasta 8y ago
    I'd expect any paper that shits on an entire field and especially on a massively profitable industry to be controversial. Here is Kirsch's reply to Fountolakis's paper, by the way: https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/15/8/1193/659638 https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/15/8/1193/659638
InGodsName 8y ago
Did you try Withania, i wonder why it's never prescribed bu anyone: https://examine.com/supplements/ashwagandha/ https://examine.com/supplements/ashwagandha/
perseusmandate 8y ago
Having gone off antidepressants cold turkey 4+ times withdrawal stuff is wildly overblown, which is corroborated by almost all the literature It probably has more to do with a relapse back into depressive symptoms than anything in most cases

rabidrat 8y ago

I have found for myself that taking Ibuprofen eases both anxiety and depression. It's not a cure but it surprises me how much of a mental effect a mild analgesic has.

mettamage 8y ago
Would anyone have an idea why this could potentially be?
- jganetsk 8y ago
  https://www.mdedge.com/fedprac/article/81232/mental-health/nsaids-may-reduce-depression https://www.mdedge.com/fedprac/article/81232/mental-health/n...
  - fromthestart 8y ago
    I'd caution anyone making a link between depression and NSAIDs from that paper. Most of those people probably climbed out of depression because they specifically administered pain medication to subjects with osteoarthritis. Suddenly being rid of chronic pain can be liberating.
    - jjb123 8y ago
      Rethinking this relationship is a major point of the original thread/article.

InGodsName 8y ago

We don't know about severity of the depression when we say depression. My friend has racing thoughts, feeling tired all time, unable to move, unable to think. Negatives thoughts amplifying to point where nothing no longer makes sense. Can such depression be treated? When she was born, she had a serological conflict. 1. She first recognized it at age 8. 2. Now she's 18 3. Tried sucide at 16 It's not like she doesn't want to get better. She has everything good going for her but her body/brain isn't helping her. Now, this article makes me wonder if she had this depression since birth and only understood it by 8. And wether she is still affected by antibodies eating out her cells? Tho i don't have any real sister but she is like my own sister. I am willing to spend all my money to see her cured from this depression. But nothing has worked so far.

z3t4 8y ago
i think its warranted to go see a doctor.
smnplk 8y ago
Pardon me for saying something she has already tried. But here are some ideas. - put her on a strict meat & veggies only diet (without nightshades) - Look into low dose naltrexon therapy, there is a LDN facebook group where you can ask questions. Oh and of course, visit many doctors and ask them about treatment.
wolco 8y ago
I wonder if changing the gut bacteria might provide her a route to health. A serological impact would deprive her of bacteria that could reduce imflamation
dan_dev_this 8y ago
Take a look at neurofeedback, I had a friend with deep depression who was able to recover with that.
ACC_investor 8y ago
You could have her try a zero-carb (carnivore) diet. Nothing but beef, salt and water for a month. Probably won't work but considering all the anecdotal evidence and the fact that it's cheap and easy, I'd say it's worth a shot.

Bucephalus355 8y ago

This is very important. It’s not yet fully understood, but something is missing yet in our understanding of inflammation. It’s not everything, just like antibiotics weren’t everything, but progress here will mean curing an incredible amount of human suffering. The book linked below, a late 2015 text on Molecular Neuropharmacology, is fascinating. Every chapter has a mention of inflammation and usually ibuprofen. It’s that important. Particularly fascinating is the connection with ADHD, Parkinson’s, and Schizophrenia. All of the diseases have something to do with dysregulation of Dopamine. In particular, it seems like Ibuprofen helps with reducing the effects of Dopamine overload, which is essentially what Schizophrenia is. It’s an inflammation of the mind that is somewhat similar to how we now think sugar causes harm/inflammation. Anyway this overload eventually can lead to underload, or Parkinson’s. ADHD individuals are often overloaded as well due to the treatment with stimulant medication (which is good but can be abused). I’m not kidding when I say there are Nobel prizes being left on the table here right now. https://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Neuropharmacology-Foundation-Clinical-Neuroscience/dp/0071827692 https://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Neuropharmacology-Foundatio...

auganov 8y ago
Interesting definitely adding this to my reading list for self serving reasons. I independently came to similar ideas about inflammation, mostly because I have to take a lot of Ibuprofen for chronic pain and what works best is taking some preemptively on non painful days. That is, I always tried to think up more reasons for why this isn't a terrible idea.
- 995533 8y ago
  Ibuprofen may cause ulcers, bleeding, or holes in the stomach or intestine.
  - giardini 8y ago
    Always possible, but I've taken taking 200 mg ibuprofen 2X per day for 30 years w/o a problem. I also take an 81 mg aspirin every night. I take turmeric and cinnamon with my coffee in the morning. If I get a bad headache I take two 325-mg aspirin also. I have no stomach problems unless I drink too much Starbucks coffee over a 3-day period.

ada1981 8y ago

I suffered from suicidal depression, anxiety, mania, psychosis, paranoia, panic attacks and more. I flirted with diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder to bipolar. My life was pretty out of control. I didn’t like the outcomes I saw of people who were on meds their entire life and I didn’t buy the story from mainstream psychiatry. I found MDMA therapy via an underground practice and it transformed my life over the course of a few session. I was able to get to the root of all symptoms and heal what was beneath. Combined with Holotropic Breathwork and NARM / somatic therapy for integration, this approach blew anything the psychiatrists were offering out of the water. I’ve been experimenting with CBD and it seems to offer and even deeper level of clarity and non-anxiety. No psychiatric meds, no symptoms and my creative and romantic life now has something to grown from - before this everything was in a constant cycle of boom and bust.

cortesoft 8y ago
I am very glad this worked for you, but isn't MDMA a psychiatric med?
- egypturnash 8y ago
  It started as one but after it found broad use as a recreational drug it was made illegal. It's Schedule I in the US and illegal in most countries (source: wikipedia). Which is a shame because holy crap the one time I had MDMA sure broke me out of a major depression I'd been in for a couple decades.
- ada1981 8y ago
  It’s currently in Phase 3 for PTSD after spending a couple decades in prohibition. It’s not a sanctioned medicine yet, and historically has been outside the bounds of western psychiatry. And when I mean no psychiatric meds I mean nothing ongoing.
  - partomniscient 8y ago
    Bit late to the thread, but here's a link to where I assume the poster is referring to: https://maps.org https://maps.org (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies)

andyidsinga 8y ago

so serendipitous - the other day ago I was putting down some wood flooring in my house and hurt my back a little - something that happens from time to time in exactly the same place - so I knew that I should get on top of it and take a couple of ibuprofen. So I take a the ibuprofen, and take a break for an a couple hours - and as I noticed the back pain go away - I also noticed a distinct improvement in my mood! I had the exact reaction described in the article "of course, your back doesn't hurt ..duh". The article makes me wonder if there is another explanation for the mood improvement ..

brianwawok 8y ago
The risk is your back is hurt because it’s damaged. It needs time to heal. Taking ibuprofen hides the pain but doesn’t fix the problem in MOST cases.

cageface 8y ago

One of the best things I've ever done for my mood is to switch to a plant based diet full of natural anti inflammatory foods. I noticed a big lift in my mood after the first week and it's stuck with me almost two years later. Check this video for more details: https://youtu.be/4xbNNxQZEgA https://youtu.be/4xbNNxQZEgA

_up 8y ago
Did you also eat less sugar/carbs? Because I think sugar is the main culprit.
- cageface 8y ago
  Sugar and refined carbs can also cause inflammation but I cut those out of my diet years ago. I didn't see the real benefits until I switched to a plant based diet.
  - gnulinux 8y ago
    I don't want to be that guy again (I've been heavily downvoted in every nutrition threads I contributed in HN), please understand that I'm trying to learn and improve myself. But I'm curious how did you come up with a plant-based diet that's not high in sugar. As far as I know pretty much all (except very few) plant based food are very high in sugar. Especially most fruits have exorbitant amounts of fructose. I usually eat high fiber veggies (like broccoli, brussel sprouts, soybeans etc...) but it doesn't give much variety. Remember that most animal based food (eggs, most cheese, chicken, turkey, red meat, fish etc) are 0 sugar. Also, nuts are low carb, high fat but they're very high in Omega 6 (except walnut and some seeds like flaxseed) and there is some research indicating synergy between sugar and Omega 6 for inflammation (I can find the link if you want, but I'm too tired right now). I'm all for veganism but I can never find a suitable vegan cookbook. People say veganism is easy, as far as I'm concerned this is simply not true. If you go full vegan you have absolutely no choice other than soybeans to get adequate amount of protein. Any other protein source such as beans are very high in carbs (e.g. 600 cal of black beans have only 40g of protein (which is only 1/3 of my daily need as a bodybuilder) but have 116g of carbs only 30g of which fiber, in my book a very unhealthy food). And since you cannot supplement your diet with seafood, you have very few choices of Omega 3 sources (various seeds, acai berry, walnut come to mind). To make myself clear: I think vegan diet is efficient, sustainable and ethical. But there is simply no easy way to go full vegan and get enough macro nutrients (in particular protein, and fats) without getting a lot of sugar. I have a lot of problem with inflammation and even 5g of sugar is too much for me, so it seems like the only plant based food I can eat are soybeans and broccoli. Maybe I'm missing something. Care to help?

_up 8y ago

I am a huge fan of "Dr. Berg" on Youtube he helped me a lot with doing Keto/OMAD correct and reducing inflammation. He also has an interesting Video on depression. The 6 Causes of Depression: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV5OlaPZ6C4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV5OlaPZ6C4 Also fascinating is a lot of interesting medical knowledge he gathers by reading patent applications.

_up 8y ago
The 6 main causes he says are btw: Omega3, B12, Vit.D or B1 deficiency, too much Cortisol or Insulin Resistance.

david_ar 8y ago

I found Wikipedia to be more informative than this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickness_behavior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickness_behavior

imperio59 8y ago

This psychiatrist spouting off the "serotonin imbalance" marketing speak from big pharma like it's science is frightening. This has actually never been proven to exist, which is why every ad for SSRIs states "the way this drug is believed to work is...". And then there's all the terrible side effects they never tell you about before you start taking them, and the fact you likely won't be able to stop using them without horrible withdrawal symptoms... So much about psychiatry is still more akin to shamanism than actual science and medicine it's frightening.

perseusmandate 8y ago
SSRIs are known to have a substantial anti-inflammatory effect though, as well as other drugs like Wellbutrin. I don't know if you have actually used SSRIs but the stuff about withdrawal is wildly overblown. Believing scare mongering about terrible side-effects and dependence issues kept me severely depressed and is one of the biggest regrets of my life.

zzzeek 8y ago

kind of a long yakkety article and not much on tangibles. Yes there's a correlation between depression and inflammation, but there's a much bigger bucket of potential factors going on in this area: depression, sedentary lifestyle, sugar intake, obesity, inflammation, gut bacteria, visceral fat, and a whole lot more. As a clinical depression sufferer, if I change any one of those things, all the others change too. So yes keep looking into it but my own anecdotes and reading suggest there's a more complex ecosystem than just "inflamation == depression" going on.

perseusmandate 8y ago
There have been experiments directly relating the administration of inflammatory endotoxins to immediate depressive symptoms. All of the stuff you mentioned pertains to inflammation. If gut bacteria is disharmonious or not getting enough fiber it consumes intestinal mucous which creates inflammation

ENTP 8y ago

I was diagnosed with inflammation through having a mold intolerance. Taking cholestyramine and synapsin changed everything. The CFS dissipated and everything seemed to come alive. The main thing that changed though was my mind. Brain fog had gone and a much better mood.