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Hell, yes they should. We’ve known they can identify themselves in a mirror for years. They are even known to sexually pleasure each other outside of procreat
by alanh 16y ago
Hell, yes they should. We’ve known they can identify themselves in a mirror for years. They are even known to sexually pleasure each other outside of procreation.
(If I recall the study correctly, the scientists introduced the dolphins to a mirror, and then placed an object on the dolphin’s back, out of its sight, with suction cups; the dolphin swam to the mirror and contorted to view the object.)
We should really stop poisoning their habitat. It didn’t use to be the case that most fish had such high levels of mercury.
Edit Wow, this comment just went from +7 to +4 in a minute… I guess some people feel very threatened by the idea that humans are overly dismissive of other species.
- mike_esspe 16y agoI think the problem with mirror test is that elephants and magpies pass it too.
- snth 16y agoWhat's the problem with that? Maybe elephants and magpies are smart.
- LaGrange 16y agoHumans pass it as well. Maybe we tend to underestimate even more species.
- soiz 16y agoAs humans had previously been defined as "tool-makers", when Goodall telegraphed [Louis] Leakey to report that the chimps were modifying twigs in order to "fish" termites out of holes in rock-solid termite mounds, it provoked the now famous response: "We must redefine man, redefine tool, or accept chimpanzees as human."
- Zaak 16y agoThere are few animals that pass the test. The great apes, bottlenose dolphins, magpies, and asian elephants for example. All of these animals have a large brain-to-body-size ratio, complex social interactions, problem solving ability, and a relatively long period of parental care for their young.
- lowglow 16y agoWhat about an art test: What other species makes art for the sake of art?
- alanh 16y agoIs your goal to create a test that only humans pass because we already know humans are the only worthwhile species? Sort of begging the question, isn’t it? (Edit: I don’t mean any offense — just suspicious of human heuristics.)
- jpwagner 16y agoNo offense, but this comment is awfully condescending considering the interesting question it's in response to. I think Alan's claim of the motive of the original question is unfounded. *edit: reworded for clarity
- chc 16y agoI don't see how it's condescending. Either you're seeing something I'm not or you're mistaking a rhetorical device for condescension. The idea of art being some kind of moral threshold does seem very arbitrary. Edit: Incidentally, I'm not one of the people who downvoted you.
- jpwagner 16y agoI would be totally with you if lowglow's question was: "what about a long division test?" or something similarly snarky. but art is an interesting cultural phenomenon that very likely occurs in some form in many animals. Alan's supposition that there was some bad intent in posing the question is absurd here, in my opinion.
- chc 16y agoArt is an interesting cultural phenomenon, but not something that even all humans are very interested in (unless you define it very loosely). I wouldn't be surprised to see animals produce some form of art, but neither would I surprised to see a species as intelligent as humans — or even more intelligent — that didn't give a hoot about art. Let's reframe the validity of this test in terms that we don't have thousands of years of cultural baggage around: If an alien species arrives here and teaches us all sorts of miraculous things, would we feel compelled to conclude that they are not intelligent beings if they aren't very interested in the works of Rothko? It seems particularly likely to me that an aquatic species would not have art at least until it was very advanced, since they don't have the tools or media for creating it that, say, a caveman did.
- LiveTheDream 16y ago> Edit Wow, this comment just went from +7 to +4 in a minute… I guess some people feel very threatened by the idea that humans are overly dismissive of other species. This adds nothing to the discussion. Stop worrying about a tiny, short-term karma swing. As I write this response, the parent has 12 points. /rant