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I'm a software engineer not in the Bay Area. It's true that my salary is not as high as it could be in the Bay area, but for my location my colleagues and I ar

by krupan 8y ago

I'm a software engineer not in the Bay Area. It's true that my salary is not as high as it could be in the Bay area, but for my location my colleagues and I are highly compensated. The fact is, relative to most of the world, all software engineers are outliers.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
You are free to your opinion. I am of the opinion that there are enough IT professionals out there who are undercompensated and/or treated poorly that unionization isn’t only feasible, but a superior option for those workers. Do you work more than 40 hours a week consistently as a salaried employee and not compensated for that time? Wage theft. Are you on call and not compensated for being on call or when you have to respond outside of business hours? Wage theft. Software engineers are not the only category of IT worker. You believing you’re highly compensated does not mean others are, and does not negate their right to seek a more equitable labor arrangement. Feel free to stand aside while others fight for better working conditions for themselves and the majority of their peers. > The fact is, relative to most of the world, all software engineers are outliers. (Relative to most of the world, developed country workers are highly compensated; that is no excuse for allowing worker rights to be clawed backwards, unless you’re prepared to attempt to live in the first world on a third world income)
- pm90 8y ago
  Reminder that the post is specifically about Software Engineers and not IT workers in general.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Reminder that the majority (>51%, “most” as the article title states) of software engineers are not highly compensated. My points still stand. I have no doubt those highly compensated are comfortable with the status quo, and have quite a bit to lose from unionization. All the more reason for the majority to organize despite it being against the interests of a smaller privileged subset. From the Bureau of Labor (“software engineer median salary”): “The median wage is the wage at which half the workers in an occupation earned more than that amount and half earned less. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $59,870, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $160,100. The median annual wage for software developers, systems software was $107,600 in May 2017.”
    - closeparen 8y ago
      A 10th percentile software developer makes $65k [0], around twice the median personal income. [0] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-5 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... EDIT: I see you have updated your post with the same stat, but you don't seem to understand what it means. Even the lowest-paid software developers are the class enemy that solidarity is built to fight.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        I’m comparing income distribution (~$100k delta top to bottom, not including ISOs and RSUs) within the software engineering domain, not software engineers to non-engineers.
        closeparen 8y ago
        That's even sillier. Of course only the top few people in the field enjoy the top few salaries in the field. A statistical tautology is not a political cause of action. If you define "highly compensated" as relative to the field, then we can never all be highly compensated.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        My apologies, but I disagree. A union would be able to provide a higher compensation floor (as other unions have done and do today).
        closeparen 8y ago
        Sure, a union could push the already-extremely-high compensation floor even higher.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        You consider the existing compensation high compared to other non-engineer roles. I agree, but that is not my argument nor the reason I advocate for collective bargaining. I consider SWE compensation low compared to the value delivered (we don’t need to argue that, right? That’s pretty clear IMO), and therefore desire more of the value be shared with the labor generating it versus it being captured by shareholders.
squirrelicus 8y ago
One wrinkle in the comparison is that software engineers outside the bay area get half the salary but live twice as well in terms of acreage, sqftage, and disposable purchasing power despite having infinitely more children. Austin and SLC for example.

by krupan 8y ago

toomuchtodo 8y ago

You are free to your opinion. I am of the opinion that there are enough IT professionals out there who are undercompensated and/or treated poorly that unionization isn’t only feasible, but a superior option for those workers. Do you work more than 40 hours a week consistently as a salaried employee and not compensated for that time? Wage theft. Are you on call and not compensated for being on call or when you have to respond outside of business hours? Wage theft. Software engineers are not the only category of IT worker. You believing you’re highly compensated does not mean others are, and does not negate their right to seek a more equitable labor arrangement. Feel free to stand aside while others fight for better working conditions for themselves and the majority of their peers. > The fact is, relative to most of the world, all software engineers are outliers. (Relative to most of the world, developed country workers are highly compensated; that is no excuse for allowing worker rights to be clawed backwards, unless you’re prepared to attempt to live in the first world on a third world income)

pm90 8y ago
Reminder that the post is specifically about Software Engineers and not IT workers in general.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Reminder that the majority (>51%, “most” as the article title states) of software engineers are not highly compensated. My points still stand. I have no doubt those highly compensated are comfortable with the status quo, and have quite a bit to lose from unionization. All the more reason for the majority to organize despite it being against the interests of a smaller privileged subset. From the Bureau of Labor (“software engineer median salary”): “The median wage is the wage at which half the workers in an occupation earned more than that amount and half earned less. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $59,870, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $160,100. The median annual wage for software developers, systems software was $107,600 in May 2017.”
  - closeparen 8y ago
    A 10th percentile software developer makes $65k [0], around twice the median personal income. [0] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-5 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... EDIT: I see you have updated your post with the same stat, but you don't seem to understand what it means. Even the lowest-paid software developers are the class enemy that solidarity is built to fight.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      I’m comparing income distribution (~$100k delta top to bottom, not including ISOs and RSUs) within the software engineering domain, not software engineers to non-engineers.
      - closeparen 8y ago
        That's even sillier. Of course only the top few people in the field enjoy the top few salaries in the field. A statistical tautology is not a political cause of action. If you define "highly compensated" as relative to the field, then we can never all be highly compensated.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        My apologies, but I disagree. A union would be able to provide a higher compensation floor (as other unions have done and do today).
        closeparen 8y ago
        Sure, a union could push the already-extremely-high compensation floor even higher.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        You consider the existing compensation high compared to other non-engineer roles. I agree, but that is not my argument nor the reason I advocate for collective bargaining. I consider SWE compensation low compared to the value delivered (we don’t need to argue that, right? That’s pretty clear IMO), and therefore desire more of the value be shared with the labor generating it versus it being captured by shareholders.

squirrelicus 8y ago

One wrinkle in the comparison is that software engineers outside the bay area get half the salary but live twice as well in terms of acreage, sqftage, and disposable purchasing power despite having infinitely more children. Austin and SLC for example.