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The argument seems to be that: * 95 (no, sorry 99%) of Software Engineers are IT peons and * therefore don't lose much by unionizing; however * if you're one

by pm90 8y ago

The argument seems to be that: * 95 (no, sorry 99%) of Software Engineers are IT peons and * therefore don't lose much by unionizing; however * if you're one of the few lucky ones being recognized for what they do and making enough in compensation, don't bother It seems to me that the biggest problem in this theory is the first assumption is wrong (at least the numbers are wildly off). Most software engineers tend to be highly compensated, work in fairly independent teams, are recognized for their contributions so don't have much to gain from unionizing.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
A subset of software engineers work in the Bay Area, the rest do not and are not highly compensated. Therefore it makes sense for most software engineers to unionize and let the “highly compensated” fend for themselves. Besides software engineers, there are plenty of sysadmins, help desk folks, and other technology professionals outside of developers who are also not highly compensated who would benefit from unionizing along with software engineers who aren’t outliers.
- krupan 8y ago
  I'm a software engineer not in the Bay Area. It's true that my salary is not as high as it could be in the Bay area, but for my location my colleagues and I are highly compensated. The fact is, relative to most of the world, all software engineers are outliers.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    You are free to your opinion. I am of the opinion that there are enough IT professionals out there who are undercompensated and/or treated poorly that unionization isn’t only feasible, but a superior option for those workers. Do you work more than 40 hours a week consistently as a salaried employee and not compensated for that time? Wage theft. Are you on call and not compensated for being on call or when you have to respond outside of business hours? Wage theft. Software engineers are not the only category of IT worker. You believing you’re highly compensated does not mean others are, and does not negate their right to seek a more equitable labor arrangement. Feel free to stand aside while others fight for better working conditions for themselves and the majority of their peers. > The fact is, relative to most of the world, all software engineers are outliers. (Relative to most of the world, developed country workers are highly compensated; that is no excuse for allowing worker rights to be clawed backwards, unless you’re prepared to attempt to live in the first world on a third world income)
    - pm90 8y ago
      Reminder that the post is specifically about Software Engineers and not IT workers in general.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Reminder that the majority (>51%, “most” as the article title states) of software engineers are not highly compensated. My points still stand. I have no doubt those highly compensated are comfortable with the status quo, and have quite a bit to lose from unionization. All the more reason for the majority to organize despite it being against the interests of a smaller privileged subset. From the Bureau of Labor (“software engineer median salary”): “The median wage is the wage at which half the workers in an occupation earned more than that amount and half earned less. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $59,870, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $160,100. The median annual wage for software developers, systems software was $107,600 in May 2017.”
        closeparen 8y ago
        A 10th percentile software developer makes $65k [0], around twice the median personal income. [0] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-5 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... EDIT: I see you have updated your post with the same stat, but you don't seem to understand what it means. Even the lowest-paid software developers are the class enemy that solidarity is built to fight.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        I’m comparing income distribution (~$100k delta top to bottom, not including ISOs and RSUs) within the software engineering domain, not software engineers to non-engineers.
        closeparen 8y ago
        That's even sillier. Of course only the top few people in the field enjoy the top few salaries in the field. A statistical tautology is not a political cause of action. If you define "highly compensated" as relative to the field, then we can never all be highly compensated.
  - squirrelicus 8y ago
    One wrinkle in the comparison is that software engineers outside the bay area get half the salary but live twice as well in terms of acreage, sqftage, and disposable purchasing power despite having infinitely more children. Austin and SLC for example.
PavlovsCat 8y ago
> if you're one of the few lucky ones being recognized for what they do and making enough in compensation, don't bother I would disagree with that. Of course I should still "bother" to make the world around me better, I still "bother" with solidarity. Even if it's just so I can enjoy my own luck freely, and be open when I meet new people. The less corpses I have in my basement, the less corners I cut because "fuck you got mine", the more free I am. The more free I am, the quicker and better I develop. Also, unused muscles atrophy, unused mental and social "muscles" do as well, and the primary reward for being in shape is being in shape, it just feels better than being out of shape.
- pm90 8y ago
  If a system is working for you as you expect it to, you understandably have no real motivation to change it. That is the only point of that statement. If you're concerned that your coworkers in the same company or in other companies are not being treated fairly by the system and want to help in changing it, sure, you can do that. But that's usually not the strongest force for change in these things. In fact, the better compensated and happy workers would want to ensure the continuity of this system that treats them so well.
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago
    So in summary, I say I disagree and give my personal reasons for me personally disagreeing, and you give me permission to have them and act on them, and then reiterate what "most" people feel, as if I didn't know that, as if that wasn't the basis for me commenting in the first place.
bjourne 8y ago
The premise is that software engineers are underpaid. Not that their salary is bad or lower than the national average, only that the value they produce is worth more than their compensation. Ergo they should get paid more. Fairness really has little to do with it. Work is a business transaction extract as much compensation as possible. One very effective tool to achieve that is collective bargaining. Because the fairness argument is always so one-sided. It is always the worker that should mind if he or she is making enough, never the owner. Apple is making hundreds of billions in profits on overpriced products and no one bats an eye. But if Apple engineers unionize to try and increase their salaries, you'd get lots of calls about how they are selfish and already making enough money.

by pm90 8y ago

toomuchtodo 8y ago

A subset of software engineers work in the Bay Area, the rest do not and are not highly compensated. Therefore it makes sense for most software engineers to unionize and let the “highly compensated” fend for themselves. Besides software engineers, there are plenty of sysadmins, help desk folks, and other technology professionals outside of developers who are also not highly compensated who would benefit from unionizing along with software engineers who aren’t outliers.

krupan 8y ago
I'm a software engineer not in the Bay Area. It's true that my salary is not as high as it could be in the Bay area, but for my location my colleagues and I are highly compensated. The fact is, relative to most of the world, all software engineers are outliers.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  You are free to your opinion. I am of the opinion that there are enough IT professionals out there who are undercompensated and/or treated poorly that unionization isn’t only feasible, but a superior option for those workers. Do you work more than 40 hours a week consistently as a salaried employee and not compensated for that time? Wage theft. Are you on call and not compensated for being on call or when you have to respond outside of business hours? Wage theft. Software engineers are not the only category of IT worker. You believing you’re highly compensated does not mean others are, and does not negate their right to seek a more equitable labor arrangement. Feel free to stand aside while others fight for better working conditions for themselves and the majority of their peers. > The fact is, relative to most of the world, all software engineers are outliers. (Relative to most of the world, developed country workers are highly compensated; that is no excuse for allowing worker rights to be clawed backwards, unless you’re prepared to attempt to live in the first world on a third world income)
  - pm90 8y ago
    Reminder that the post is specifically about Software Engineers and not IT workers in general.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Reminder that the majority (>51%, “most” as the article title states) of software engineers are not highly compensated. My points still stand. I have no doubt those highly compensated are comfortable with the status quo, and have quite a bit to lose from unionization. All the more reason for the majority to organize despite it being against the interests of a smaller privileged subset. From the Bureau of Labor (“software engineer median salary”): “The median wage is the wage at which half the workers in an occupation earned more than that amount and half earned less. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $59,870, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $160,100. The median annual wage for software developers, systems software was $107,600 in May 2017.”
      - closeparen 8y ago
        A 10th percentile software developer makes $65k [0], around twice the median personal income. [0] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-5 https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... EDIT: I see you have updated your post with the same stat, but you don't seem to understand what it means. Even the lowest-paid software developers are the class enemy that solidarity is built to fight.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        I’m comparing income distribution (~$100k delta top to bottom, not including ISOs and RSUs) within the software engineering domain, not software engineers to non-engineers.
        closeparen 8y ago
        That's even sillier. Of course only the top few people in the field enjoy the top few salaries in the field. A statistical tautology is not a political cause of action. If you define "highly compensated" as relative to the field, then we can never all be highly compensated.
- squirrelicus 8y ago
  One wrinkle in the comparison is that software engineers outside the bay area get half the salary but live twice as well in terms of acreage, sqftage, and disposable purchasing power despite having infinitely more children. Austin and SLC for example.

PavlovsCat 8y ago

> if you're one of the few lucky ones being recognized for what they do and making enough in compensation, don't bother I would disagree with that. Of course I should still "bother" to make the world around me better, I still "bother" with solidarity. Even if it's just so I can enjoy my own luck freely, and be open when I meet new people. The less corpses I have in my basement, the less corners I cut because "fuck you got mine", the more free I am. The more free I am, the quicker and better I develop. Also, unused muscles atrophy, unused mental and social "muscles" do as well, and the primary reward for being in shape is being in shape, it just feels better than being out of shape.

pm90 8y ago
If a system is working for you as you expect it to, you understandably have no real motivation to change it. That is the only point of that statement. If you're concerned that your coworkers in the same company or in other companies are not being treated fairly by the system and want to help in changing it, sure, you can do that. But that's usually not the strongest force for change in these things. In fact, the better compensated and happy workers would want to ensure the continuity of this system that treats them so well.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  So in summary, I say I disagree and give my personal reasons for me personally disagreeing, and you give me permission to have them and act on them, and then reiterate what "most" people feel, as if I didn't know that, as if that wasn't the basis for me commenting in the first place.

bjourne 8y ago

The premise is that software engineers are underpaid. Not that their salary is bad or lower than the national average, only that the value they produce is worth more than their compensation. Ergo they should get paid more. Fairness really has little to do with it. Work is a business transaction extract as much compensation as possible. One very effective tool to achieve that is collective bargaining. Because the fairness argument is always so one-sided. It is always the worker that should mind if he or she is making enough, never the owner. Apple is making hundreds of billions in profits on overpriced products and no one bats an eye. But if Apple engineers unionize to try and increase their salaries, you'd get lots of calls about how they are selfish and already making enough money.