6 ms·

In a free society, it's always OK to offend; offense is not given, it's taken. The offended person chooses to be offended, they are responsible for their own em

by zorga 8y ago

In a free society, it's always OK to offend; offense is not given, it's taken. The offended person chooses to be offended, they are responsible for their own emotions. > By that logic plenty of people are justified in offending gays, transgender, immigrants, etc. Being offensive doesn't require justification, it's always OK; that's what free speech means. If you are not free to offend, you quite simply are not free. Gays, transgenders, and immigrants, and all other people might need to remind themselves the simple things children learn, words are not violence and can simply be ignored. If you're not mature enough to ignore a loudmouth trying to offend you, you are the one with the problem; you are not mature. As they say, prepare the child for the road, not the road for the child.

manfredo 8y ago
The point of the comment isn't that said offense should be banned. It's pointing out the irony in that the above commenter's pride in offending those he or she doesn't want to see in society is the same motivation as many people said commenter probably despises.
- mattigames 8y ago
  They can claim is the same motivation, but my mockery is based on reason, like when I mock anti-vaxers telling them their child will die because his mum trusted his facebook friends a bit too much instead of doctors, or when I mock the catholic church because a pedophile scandal on any other organization would make the organization dissappear.
  - manfredo 8y ago
    Yes, and no doubt homophobes, islamophobes, etc. see the reason in their mockery with the same conviction as you see in yours. Just as you mock churches for pedophile scandals, they mock pro immigration for mass sexual assaults[1]. It seems like your rationale boils down to saying, "it's okay when I do it because I'm right", while failing to see that plenty of other people with conflicting views see themselves in the right. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year's_E...
    - mattigames 8y ago
      Oh no doubt they have even more conviction than me, the thing is that conviction doesn't win arguments, what separate us from animals is reason, mockery is just a medium, a channel of communication, more consumable that long essays or books about why-they-are-wrong or whatever you believe to be the alternative to such mockery.
      - manfredo 8y ago
        I would be cautious in assuming that mockery is an effective means of communication, at least if your goal is to influence people to adopt your point of view. In my experience, the result is that the subject of mockery becomes even more entrenched in their views and many of those that agree with the one carrying out the mockery become alienated and distance themselves. While mockery certainly garners attention, it's largely a self destructive endeavor.
        zorga 8y ago
        Mockery is otherwise known as peer pressure, and it's quite effective to make an argument clear to those on the fence who don't feel strongly either way, particularly when many are mocking. To say mockery is not effective is to claim that peer pressure doesn't work, and I'd assert that's just wrong. Humans are social animals, they don't like being mocked, and when enough people make fun of a particular position, people will avoid taking that position.
        manfredo 8y ago
        Mockery is not peer pressure. Peer pressure is the phenomenon in which people feel compelled to conform to the examples set by people they see as peers. E.g. friends conforming to the examples and expectations set by each other. Peer pressure's influence scales with the degree someone respects these people as peers. Mockery usually diminishes that respect. People who mock each other rarely see each other as peers in the first place, anyway. How often have you seen a BLM activist change their views on police brutality after being mocked? I have witnessed exactly zero instances of this occurring. Same for, say, climate change skeptics. This is because they do not see the people being mocked as peers, and thus do not care about the opinion of those mocking them. This is why mocking is usually self defeating. By resorting to mockery, the people you're trying to influence no longer see you as a peer, and thus it drastically limits what influence you initially had on their views. You claim that, "when enough people make fun of a particular position, people will avoid taking that position" but I have never witnessed this occur. I have not once witnessed an instance in which a person changed their views after being mocked for them. How many times have you adopted a view you previously opposed because you were mocked? Do people mocking gays or immigrants people make you feel compelled to adopt their views on LGBT issues or border policy, for example? If not, why do you seem to believe that your mockery will be any different in its success (or lack thereof)? On the contrary, I have witnessed countless people take a defensive stance after being mocked for their views, and entrenching themselves even further into whatever views prompted the mockery. Not only that, it frequently makes people reluctant to take part in advancing the views of the one carrying out the mockery. In fact, this is occurring right now in this comment thread: witnessing you proudly stating that you carry out childish behavior in support of certain views is making me more reluctant to voice support of said views, even though I do agree with them, as I do not want to be associated with people such as yourself that take pride in their mockery.

by zorga 8y ago

manfredo 8y ago

The point of the comment isn't that said offense should be banned. It's pointing out the irony in that the above commenter's pride in offending those he or she doesn't want to see in society is the same motivation as many people said commenter probably despises.

mattigames 8y ago
They can claim is the same motivation, but my mockery is based on reason, like when I mock anti-vaxers telling them their child will die because his mum trusted his facebook friends a bit too much instead of doctors, or when I mock the catholic church because a pedophile scandal on any other organization would make the organization dissappear.
- manfredo 8y ago
  Yes, and no doubt homophobes, islamophobes, etc. see the reason in their mockery with the same conviction as you see in yours. Just as you mock churches for pedophile scandals, they mock pro immigration for mass sexual assaults[1]. It seems like your rationale boils down to saying, "it's okay when I do it because I'm right", while failing to see that plenty of other people with conflicting views see themselves in the right. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year's_E...
  - mattigames 8y ago
    Oh no doubt they have even more conviction than me, the thing is that conviction doesn't win arguments, what separate us from animals is reason, mockery is just a medium, a channel of communication, more consumable that long essays or books about why-they-are-wrong or whatever you believe to be the alternative to such mockery.
    - manfredo 8y ago
      I would be cautious in assuming that mockery is an effective means of communication, at least if your goal is to influence people to adopt your point of view. In my experience, the result is that the subject of mockery becomes even more entrenched in their views and many of those that agree with the one carrying out the mockery become alienated and distance themselves. While mockery certainly garners attention, it's largely a self destructive endeavor.
      - zorga 8y ago
        Mockery is otherwise known as peer pressure, and it's quite effective to make an argument clear to those on the fence who don't feel strongly either way, particularly when many are mocking. To say mockery is not effective is to claim that peer pressure doesn't work, and I'd assert that's just wrong. Humans are social animals, they don't like being mocked, and when enough people make fun of a particular position, people will avoid taking that position.
        manfredo 8y ago
        Mockery is not peer pressure. Peer pressure is the phenomenon in which people feel compelled to conform to the examples set by people they see as peers. E.g. friends conforming to the examples and expectations set by each other. Peer pressure's influence scales with the degree someone respects these people as peers. Mockery usually diminishes that respect. People who mock each other rarely see each other as peers in the first place, anyway. How often have you seen a BLM activist change their views on police brutality after being mocked? I have witnessed exactly zero instances of this occurring. Same for, say, climate change skeptics. This is because they do not see the people being mocked as peers, and thus do not care about the opinion of those mocking them. This is why mocking is usually self defeating. By resorting to mockery, the people you're trying to influence no longer see you as a peer, and thus it drastically limits what influence you initially had on their views. You claim that, "when enough people make fun of a particular position, people will avoid taking that position" but I have never witnessed this occur. I have not once witnessed an instance in which a person changed their views after being mocked for them. How many times have you adopted a view you previously opposed because you were mocked? Do people mocking gays or immigrants people make you feel compelled to adopt their views on LGBT issues or border policy, for example? If not, why do you seem to believe that your mockery will be any different in its success (or lack thereof)? On the contrary, I have witnessed countless people take a defensive stance after being mocked for their views, and entrenching themselves even further into whatever views prompted the mockery. Not only that, it frequently makes people reluctant to take part in advancing the views of the one carrying out the mockery. In fact, this is occurring right now in this comment thread: witnessing you proudly stating that you carry out childish behavior in support of certain views is making me more reluctant to voice support of said views, even though I do agree with them, as I do not want to be associated with people such as yourself that take pride in their mockery.