4 ms·

But the integrity of their business model is not my problem.

tptacek 16y ago
If "might is right" is the ethical/legal regime we're all going to be working under, you realize Microsoft has access to talent of the same caliber as Bunnie Huang, and in significantly larger quantities? These arguments make sense if you believe that "DRM" (software protection) has lost the technological war. But it hasn't! You just don't see the high-end stuff deployed in places where hackers care about it --- with the possible exception of the hypervisor-secured game consoles.
- CamperBob 16y ago
  If "might is right" is the ethical/legal regime we're all going to be working under, you realize Microsoft has access to talent of the same caliber as Bunnie Huang, and in significantly larger quantities? They have access to talent of that caliber, but apparently ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems ) they aren't willing to pay for it.
- nitrogen 16y ago
  This assumes that "talent" is a magical dust that makes everything better when you sprinkle it on. I have a few counterarguments: 1. No doubt there are incredibly intelligent, motivated people working for Microsoft, but talent requires an appropriate environment to reach its potential. 2. The mistake is often made of assuming that the "good guys" are the only ones with smart people on their side. This mistake is most frequently seen in discussions of national security and nuclear technology. 3. All it takes to defeat a non-service-based DRM scheme is one vulnerability. If the Kinect has to continually stream motion data to Microsoft servers for processing (kind of like Android speech recognition), then Microsoft can keep changing the protocol and encryption. If Microsoft's 100 talented engineers leave just one gap, and one talented hacker finds it, then hackers "win." 4. "Might makes right" should absolutely apply to what talented hackers do with products they own. I value individual property rights above corporate business model preservation. It is the duty of the giant and powerful corporations to ensure their business models aren't vulnerable to the whims of talented hackers, and using the law to make it so is unethical.
  - nitrogen 16y ago
    Apologies for the poor formatting. I forgot that I have to use \n\n instead of just \n to get new paragraphs, and ran into maxvisit so I couldn't change it before the editing window closed.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      Microsoft doesn't have to and won't rely on its own internal engineers if it decides to care enough about Kinect to stop this kind of thing.
      - nitrogen 16y ago
        That's why I added the final clause of item 4, "and using the law to make it so is unethical." I don't blame you if you didn't make it that far with the botched formatting. It's also worth noting that I'm commenting on how I believe things should be, not how they are. "Might makes right" currently has hackers ~= Microsoft, but Microsoft+lawyers+lobbyists >> hackers.
        tptacek 16y ago
        No, I meant, Microsoft will contract to teams of outside engineers who have made this problem their life's work.
- Natsu 16y ago
  > These arguments make sense if you believe that "DRM" (software protection) has lost the technological war. But it hasn't! You just don't see the high-end stuff deployed in places where hackers care about it --- with the possible exception of the hypervisor-secured game consoles. Where is it, then? And if it's where I think it is, don't most such places keep tight control of their hardware? (As opposed to letting random consumers buy and own it.)
  - tptacek 16y ago
    How about DTV cards, or BD+ Blu-Ray disks?
    - Natsu 16y ago
      Fair enough, but I wouldn't consider any of those to be "won" as if nobody's ever going to hack them. BD+ in particular, I thought some commercial program was already able to emulate. And I haven't heard of any movies where there are no pirated versions available, but I don't watch them at all, so I might be out of the loop. And mere Blu-Ray (for those disks without BD+), is pretty well cracked at this point if one is to believe the hexadecimal numbers going around the internet.

If "might is right" is the ethical/legal regime we're all going to be working under, you realize Microsoft has access to talent of the same caliber as Bunnie Huang, and in significantly larger quantities? These arguments make sense if you believe that "DRM" (software protection) has lost the technological war. But it hasn't! You just don't see the high-end stuff deployed in places where hackers care about it --- with the possible exception of the hypervisor-secured game consoles.

CamperBob 16y ago
If "might is right" is the ethical/legal regime we're all going to be working under, you realize Microsoft has access to talent of the same caliber as Bunnie Huang, and in significantly larger quantities? They have access to talent of that caliber, but apparently ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems ) they aren't willing to pay for it.
nitrogen 16y ago
This assumes that "talent" is a magical dust that makes everything better when you sprinkle it on. I have a few counterarguments: 1. No doubt there are incredibly intelligent, motivated people working for Microsoft, but talent requires an appropriate environment to reach its potential. 2. The mistake is often made of assuming that the "good guys" are the only ones with smart people on their side. This mistake is most frequently seen in discussions of national security and nuclear technology. 3. All it takes to defeat a non-service-based DRM scheme is one vulnerability. If the Kinect has to continually stream motion data to Microsoft servers for processing (kind of like Android speech recognition), then Microsoft can keep changing the protocol and encryption. If Microsoft's 100 talented engineers leave just one gap, and one talented hacker finds it, then hackers "win." 4. "Might makes right" should absolutely apply to what talented hackers do with products they own. I value individual property rights above corporate business model preservation. It is the duty of the giant and powerful corporations to ensure their business models aren't vulnerable to the whims of talented hackers, and using the law to make it so is unethical.
- nitrogen 16y ago
  Apologies for the poor formatting. I forgot that I have to use \n\n instead of just \n to get new paragraphs, and ran into maxvisit so I couldn't change it before the editing window closed.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Microsoft doesn't have to and won't rely on its own internal engineers if it decides to care enough about Kinect to stop this kind of thing.
    - nitrogen 16y ago
      That's why I added the final clause of item 4, "and using the law to make it so is unethical." I don't blame you if you didn't make it that far with the botched formatting. It's also worth noting that I'm commenting on how I believe things should be, not how they are. "Might makes right" currently has hackers ~= Microsoft, but Microsoft+lawyers+lobbyists >> hackers.
      - tptacek 16y ago
        No, I meant, Microsoft will contract to teams of outside engineers who have made this problem their life's work.
Natsu 16y ago
> These arguments make sense if you believe that "DRM" (software protection) has lost the technological war. But it hasn't! You just don't see the high-end stuff deployed in places where hackers care about it --- with the possible exception of the hypervisor-secured game consoles. Where is it, then? And if it's where I think it is, don't most such places keep tight control of their hardware? (As opposed to letting random consumers buy and own it.)
- tptacek 16y ago
  How about DTV cards, or BD+ Blu-Ray disks?
  - Natsu 16y ago
    Fair enough, but I wouldn't consider any of those to be "won" as if nobody's ever going to hack them. BD+ in particular, I thought some commercial program was already able to emulate. And I haven't heard of any movies where there are no pirated versions available, but I don't watch them at all, so I might be out of the loop. And mere Blu-Ray (for those disks without BD+), is pretty well cracked at this point if one is to believe the hexadecimal numbers going around the internet.