7 ms·

This year I learned that God is real. I'd been an atheist since 14 and have spent the majority of my life an atheist. I believed that there was insufficient ev

This year I learned that God is real. I'd been an atheist since 14 and have spent the majority of my life an atheist. I believed that there was insufficient evidence for the existence of God. In many ways I still believe that. I dont believe in a magic transdimensional entity most people believe in when they talk about God. However, much like you feel the spirit of celebration when your team scores a goal, or the spirit of accomplishment when you complete a difficult task, or the spirit of Ares when your kid dumps a cup of water on your computer and laughs in your face, God is the spirit of knowing the right thing to do. God is, at least, a very real force that exists, in part, within us all in Western culture. We've inherited God. That's my conclusion anyway. To be clear, I'm Christian now, as of August. I take the Bible seriously now. But to be extra clear, I believe it's all metaphor. Metaphor that tells you deep truths about yourself. For those interested, the catalyst for me was Jordan Peterson's series "The Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories", available in full for free on YouTube

WaddyJones 8y ago
That’s not your conclusion that’s Peterson’s conclusion and it is highly erroneous. You can’t just redefine God and then state that you believe in Him. You clearly do not believe in the popular conception of God so don’t pretend you do. You believe in a highly niche and specialized definition of God that literally zero religious people agree with. You don’t believe “God is real,” and you’re definitely not Christian dude. What you just stated is heresy to even the least religious of Christians. Don’t kid yourself, You’re not religious , you just like Jordan Peterson a lot. Lmaoooo
RickS 8y ago
I know what you mean. JP's biblical lectures were the first thing that made the concept of "God" as a framework for conduct and interacting with the world into something that was accessible to someone that doesn't believe in fairy tales. I wouldn't call myself a Christian – I'm athiest, or at least uninterested in prioritizing any diety concept above any other – but being able to finally "get" what (some) religious people see in their texts was awesome. The biggest help was basically learning to steelman the texts. Rather than viewing them as default stupid and looking for chinks in the armor, viewing them as containing something abstract but useful that I didn't understand and attempting to meditate on what that might be and why it might work has been valuable.
- squirrelicus 8y ago
  Right. I chose to disown the label atheist and don the label theist because of one thing: I don't believe that fairy tales describe reality. I.e. I don't believe in the existence of God. But I definitely believe in God.
MilanoCookie 8y ago
To offer an alternative viewpoint, have you watched Sam Harris talk about religion on YouTube? He even debated Jordan Peterson about topics such as morality. I like Peterson a lot, but similar to Ben Shapiro, when they talk about religion...all logic, rationality, and objective truth seeking goes out the window. The so called spirits you talk about are merely emotions. Religious beliefs are prevelant in Western culture for historical reasons, such that it has become a tradition. Can you imagine the anger, sadness, existential dread, and perhaps violence that would occur if all religious folks found out that their beliefs are perhaps false? I heavily disagree with you saying that it reveals “deep truths”.
- squirrelicus 8y ago
  I absolutely have. The four part series between the two was enthralling. I'm not sure how you could you think logic, rationally, and objective truth seeking go out the window in Jordan's case. I know that sentence is a shibboleth of the secular community, I've said it myself. But it's just inaccurate. With Sam it's funny. He says he wants to extract the good from the past and in the same breath rejects the good in religion explicitly because it has all this baggage that Jordan explicitly rejects. I have merely accepted Jordan's assertion that within religion are rational, logical, objective truths about ourselves and human psychology that are not found anywhere else. I await with bated breath the day Sam can write a story as powerful as Job, teaching the principle that when tragedy strikes it will feel like God and Satan are plotting against you; but the Right Thing to Do when tragedy strikes you is not to reevaluate your foundation, as we are wont to do. There are many other stories in the Bible about what to do you are suffering because of your own choices. The Bible is merely psychologically profound.
  - MilanoCookie 8y ago
    I’m glad you watched the series. It’s iffy, I think religion is a good bridge to morality, with the storytelling, metaphors, and whatnot. I just don’t buy this as “truth”. We have to consider that morality is not real and it’s a human/social construct to encourage desirable and cooperative behavior. I’m happy that we did create moral and ethical values though, it’s an excellent way to further the human race and ensure future survival without having to constantly worry about chaotic behavior, similar to (good) government laws. I take the practical and actionable approach. When tragedy strikes I feel sad. That’s it. We can certainly describe the feeling in different ways using our wonderful literary methods such as metaphors, similes, etc. but at its basic core is the emotion of sadness. But what do you mean not re-evaluate the foundation? When tragedy strikes we should probably figure out how it happened and then take steps to prevent it from occurring again, a simple cause and effect analysis.
websitescenes 8y ago
> “God is, at least, a very real force that exists, in part, within us all in Western culture. We've inherited God. That's my conclusion anyway.“ That’s some strong Kool-aid you’re sipping on.
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't do religious flamewar on HN. If a comment is provocative in some way, please resist the provocation. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - websitescenes 8y ago
    Fair enough.. I’ve honestly never read those guidelines and appreciate you pointing them out. I found the parent comment to my reply very disturbing and thought it needed to be called out because it’s a dangerous point of view that enables very real atrocities both here and abroad. A belief in an inherent superiority is what led to historical events like the holocaust. It’s very difficult for me to stand by and not comment. To us living on the border, this a very real issue that affects us daily not only socially but economically.
    - dang 8y ago
      The problem isn't in responding at all, it's in the internet calling-out culture. This doesn't do any good at all, and it damages the container here.
      - websitescenes 8y ago
        I completely disagree but will abide.
momentmaker 8y ago
Somewhat related to what you have discovered: https://seekingharmoni.com/life-as-your-guru/ https://seekingharmoni.com/life-as-your-guru/
janlin1999 8y ago
> To be clear, I'm Christian now, as of August. I take the Bible seriously now. But to be extra clear, I believe it's all metaphor. Isn't that an odd position to take when parts of the Bible insist that it is not metaphorical? (e.g. Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 15 about why he believes in Jesus' bodily resurrection and his conclusion that "If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.") I can understand those who believe the Bible to be true (mixed in with some metaphor) and I can understand those who do not believe it to be true. It seems odd, though, to believe that it is entirely metaphorical and decide to take it seriously, given some of what it says. In Romans 7, Paul makes the argument that he cannot set himself free from sin and he needs God. If you believe the Bible is entirely metaphorical but take it seriously, do you believe you are setting yourself free?
- squirrelicus 8y ago
  I do believe it is extraordinarily likely that the Bible describes a legendary account about real events or people (and their beliefs) from time to time. With respect to resurrection there is no end of depth to be extracted from the theme. As a general summary, Christianity introduced the notion to the world that one could even be redeemed at all. When someone returns from the pit of nihilism and jealousy and transforms themselves into a person that faces the world forthrightly, you bet your ass I believe in Resurrection of the Dead. Not the least of which because aforementioned nihilism is a key source of suicide and violent crime. But even metaphorically, there is no life in the pit of nihilism, of hell. When people describe hell as maximal distance from God, what they are saying is true.
- squirrelicus 8y ago
  I realized I may not have directly addressed your comment, and I definitely didn't address your last question. In reverse order, I do believe God is the one setting me free. God, in my view, is at least (and maybe more) a cultural spirit we have inherited. Much of the condition I've been born and raised into was not my choice, God included. I believe I am recognizing and embracing that which is a part of me, and a part of the Christian West in general, at least. Something I've ignored or resisted for most of my life. With respect to the specific claims of the reality of the legends and metaphors, I try act as if God is real and Christ was resurrected, sure. But I'm not burdened by the question of the nature of the god of Job, for example. It's clear to me that that story is about dealing with tragedy, when it feels like God and Satan are conspiring against you.
pizza 8y ago
Have you read the novel Snow Crash? You should if you haven't.
0942v8653 8y ago
If you haven't seen it yet, this video might lend an interesting counterpoint to your "all metaphor" perspective, it has a discussion from Jonathan and Matthieu Pageau who claim "there are no metaphors in the Bible". It tends to fit better with a more traditional/orthodox Christian view. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3vqXCLhJLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3vqXCLhJLE

WaddyJones 8y ago

That’s not your conclusion that’s Peterson’s conclusion and it is highly erroneous. You can’t just redefine God and then state that you believe in Him. You clearly do not believe in the popular conception of God so don’t pretend you do. You believe in a highly niche and specialized definition of God that literally zero religious people agree with. You don’t believe “God is real,” and you’re definitely not Christian dude. What you just stated is heresy to even the least religious of Christians. Don’t kid yourself, You’re not religious , you just like Jordan Peterson a lot. Lmaoooo

RickS 8y ago

I know what you mean. JP's biblical lectures were the first thing that made the concept of "God" as a framework for conduct and interacting with the world into something that was accessible to someone that doesn't believe in fairy tales. I wouldn't call myself a Christian – I'm athiest, or at least uninterested in prioritizing any diety concept above any other – but being able to finally "get" what (some) religious people see in their texts was awesome. The biggest help was basically learning to steelman the texts. Rather than viewing them as default stupid and looking for chinks in the armor, viewing them as containing something abstract but useful that I didn't understand and attempting to meditate on what that might be and why it might work has been valuable.

squirrelicus 8y ago
Right. I chose to disown the label atheist and don the label theist because of one thing: I don't believe that fairy tales describe reality. I.e. I don't believe in the existence of God. But I definitely believe in God.

MilanoCookie 8y ago

To offer an alternative viewpoint, have you watched Sam Harris talk about religion on YouTube? He even debated Jordan Peterson about topics such as morality. I like Peterson a lot, but similar to Ben Shapiro, when they talk about religion...all logic, rationality, and objective truth seeking goes out the window. The so called spirits you talk about are merely emotions. Religious beliefs are prevelant in Western culture for historical reasons, such that it has become a tradition. Can you imagine the anger, sadness, existential dread, and perhaps violence that would occur if all religious folks found out that their beliefs are perhaps false? I heavily disagree with you saying that it reveals “deep truths”.

squirrelicus 8y ago
I absolutely have. The four part series between the two was enthralling. I'm not sure how you could you think logic, rationally, and objective truth seeking go out the window in Jordan's case. I know that sentence is a shibboleth of the secular community, I've said it myself. But it's just inaccurate. With Sam it's funny. He says he wants to extract the good from the past and in the same breath rejects the good in religion explicitly because it has all this baggage that Jordan explicitly rejects. I have merely accepted Jordan's assertion that within religion are rational, logical, objective truths about ourselves and human psychology that are not found anywhere else. I await with bated breath the day Sam can write a story as powerful as Job, teaching the principle that when tragedy strikes it will feel like God and Satan are plotting against you; but the Right Thing to Do when tragedy strikes you is not to reevaluate your foundation, as we are wont to do. There are many other stories in the Bible about what to do you are suffering because of your own choices. The Bible is merely psychologically profound.
- MilanoCookie 8y ago
  I’m glad you watched the series. It’s iffy, I think religion is a good bridge to morality, with the storytelling, metaphors, and whatnot. I just don’t buy this as “truth”. We have to consider that morality is not real and it’s a human/social construct to encourage desirable and cooperative behavior. I’m happy that we did create moral and ethical values though, it’s an excellent way to further the human race and ensure future survival without having to constantly worry about chaotic behavior, similar to (good) government laws. I take the practical and actionable approach. When tragedy strikes I feel sad. That’s it. We can certainly describe the feeling in different ways using our wonderful literary methods such as metaphors, similes, etc. but at its basic core is the emotion of sadness. But what do you mean not re-evaluate the foundation? When tragedy strikes we should probably figure out how it happened and then take steps to prevent it from occurring again, a simple cause and effect analysis.

websitescenes 8y ago

> “God is, at least, a very real force that exists, in part, within us all in Western culture. We've inherited God. That's my conclusion anyway.“ That’s some strong Kool-aid you’re sipping on.

dang 8y ago
Please don't do religious flamewar on HN. If a comment is provocative in some way, please resist the provocation. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- websitescenes 8y ago
  Fair enough.. I’ve honestly never read those guidelines and appreciate you pointing them out. I found the parent comment to my reply very disturbing and thought it needed to be called out because it’s a dangerous point of view that enables very real atrocities both here and abroad. A belief in an inherent superiority is what led to historical events like the holocaust. It’s very difficult for me to stand by and not comment. To us living on the border, this a very real issue that affects us daily not only socially but economically.
  - dang 8y ago
    The problem isn't in responding at all, it's in the internet calling-out culture. This doesn't do any good at all, and it damages the container here.
    - websitescenes 8y ago
      I completely disagree but will abide.

momentmaker 8y ago

Somewhat related to what you have discovered: https://seekingharmoni.com/life-as-your-guru/ https://seekingharmoni.com/life-as-your-guru/

janlin1999 8y ago

> To be clear, I'm Christian now, as of August. I take the Bible seriously now. But to be extra clear, I believe it's all metaphor. Isn't that an odd position to take when parts of the Bible insist that it is not metaphorical? (e.g. Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 15 about why he believes in Jesus' bodily resurrection and his conclusion that "If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.") I can understand those who believe the Bible to be true (mixed in with some metaphor) and I can understand those who do not believe it to be true. It seems odd, though, to believe that it is entirely metaphorical and decide to take it seriously, given some of what it says. In Romans 7, Paul makes the argument that he cannot set himself free from sin and he needs God. If you believe the Bible is entirely metaphorical but take it seriously, do you believe you are setting yourself free?

squirrelicus 8y ago
I do believe it is extraordinarily likely that the Bible describes a legendary account about real events or people (and their beliefs) from time to time. With respect to resurrection there is no end of depth to be extracted from the theme. As a general summary, Christianity introduced the notion to the world that one could even be redeemed at all. When someone returns from the pit of nihilism and jealousy and transforms themselves into a person that faces the world forthrightly, you bet your ass I believe in Resurrection of the Dead. Not the least of which because aforementioned nihilism is a key source of suicide and violent crime. But even metaphorically, there is no life in the pit of nihilism, of hell. When people describe hell as maximal distance from God, what they are saying is true.
squirrelicus 8y ago
I realized I may not have directly addressed your comment, and I definitely didn't address your last question. In reverse order, I do believe God is the one setting me free. God, in my view, is at least (and maybe more) a cultural spirit we have inherited. Much of the condition I've been born and raised into was not my choice, God included. I believe I am recognizing and embracing that which is a part of me, and a part of the Christian West in general, at least. Something I've ignored or resisted for most of my life. With respect to the specific claims of the reality of the legends and metaphors, I try act as if God is real and Christ was resurrected, sure. But I'm not burdened by the question of the nature of the god of Job, for example. It's clear to me that that story is about dealing with tragedy, when it feels like God and Satan are conspiring against you.

pizza 8y ago

Have you read the novel Snow Crash? You should if you haven't.

0942v8653 8y ago

If you haven't seen it yet, this video might lend an interesting counterpoint to your "all metaphor" perspective, it has a discussion from Jonathan and Matthieu Pageau who claim "there are no metaphors in the Bible". It tends to fit better with a more traditional/orthodox Christian view. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3vqXCLhJLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3vqXCLhJLE