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Perhaps you should educate yourself about the fallacious logic and death cult-ism of incel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD2briZ6fB0 https://www.youtube.com

Perhaps you should educate yourself about the fallacious logic and death cult-ism of incel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD2briZ6fB0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD2briZ6fB0

fromthestart 8y ago
So, one can not criticize the dating experience, and recognize that it is biased in favor of women, without being slandered as an incel? Why do you think more men are turning to such extremism? You think they are perpetually frustrated and bitter by choice? Remember when we used to call these men "geeks" and "nerds"? Why won't anyone acknowledge the validity of their involuntary suffering? These men are marginalized and exist on the outskirts of society for reasons beyond their choosing. Attractiveness is a continuum, and there's only so much one can do to raise ones percieved value to meet the standards of others. It isn't a secret that apps like tinder tend to make women even more selective.
- empath75 8y ago
  > These men are marginalized and exist on the outskirts of society for reasons beyond their choosing. I can assure you that the reason that most self professed incels are on the outskirts of society is that they’re fucking creepy. I mean have you read their subreddits. They make my skin crawl. And I have no idea what any of them look like.
  - fromthestart 8y ago
    Inceldom is an extremist manifestion of a growing epidemic of loneliness. Frankly, they have nothing to do with this actual discussion, and stifle discussions around male loneliness. >is that they’re fucking creepy. That's the point. They're different. What does creepy mean? Difficulty with social norms? Unusual interests? Physical unnatractiveness? You think these are choices? Incels are just especially self aware and bitter "geeks" and "nerds" of yore, back before those terms were coopted by the mainstream. I think these men are bitter because they exist with the same needs for romance that you and I do, but have no realistic way of actualizing these desires. Their pain is involuntary and real. Look past the vileness of their rhetoric and understand that they are suffering.
    - watwut 8y ago
      Most of the incels discussion gives vibe of people who are completely socially isolated - not even really having friends or other regular social group which I would see as prerequisite to girlfriend. If there is no one the guy can get along with, it is unlikely he will be able to get along with a single girl. Additionally, quite a lot of them gives vibe of someone who is dangerous to be dated, plain as simple. If this is how they act from not having partner frustration, what they will do when a girl disagree with them over something important, when she has simply bad mood, when there are serious money or sickness problems affecting relationships, when his and her career clash, when they are sleep deprived due to baby etc? Answer: likely badly. I think he means creepy on scale that Elliot Rogers was creepy. Complaining about not dating hot girl while thinking about her mostly as status item to be admired by other guys. Finding it unfair throwing fit when ugly guy has a girlfriend. while not being able to hold conversation with anyone without becoming agressive for petty reasons. Seeing all the other guys as assholes. Finding it unfair that nice cloths and money did not magically made him girlfriend. All the while he was talking about how he is supreme gentleman.
      - satokema 8y ago
        This isn't really a good faith argument - I'm sure there are plenty of regular users on this site that fit into the bucket of "bad at dating" but have a good career, at least a few decent friends, and aren't quoting serial killers or vocal visitors of some dark internet hole. All the "incels are/worship serial killer weirdos" rhetoric does is politicize the subject into an unarguable tribal debate.
        watwut 8y ago
        There is no bad faith in what I said. That is exactly my consulusion from reading it. Not killers really, but definitely vibe of people who tend to respond to interpersonal problems with abuse and retaliation. Also, they did not seemed to care about relationship with real person warts farts and compromises - they want girl in abstract with no effort to figure what would make real girl suitable partner for them personally except look. I have no way to judge career and don't care. But their grasp of how human relationships work was off from how I see people behave irl - frankly with most focus on rating and social status supposed to be acquired from pairing. It is also that part where dating is treated as game separate from other kind of relationships. It is not just how I see it work.
  - b5 8y ago
    You're taking a bad-faith reading of OP's comments: they're not talking about the self-identified incels; they're talking about the majority of single men who are single involuntarily. The latter is the group of which the former are a part. They're not the same thing, and conflating them is disingenuous. OP raises a valid point about the increasing numbers of single men and the possible long-term health and societal effects of having (say) 20% of men single for their entire 20s. A certain toxic percentage will become incels -- and probably always would have become something like that -- but the remaining 95% are a largely new phenomenon and one I don't think is being taken seriously. We're into new territory here and we'll only find out the results in 10 or 20 years time. FWIW: I'm not an incel. I've been happily married for five years.
dang 8y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar hell. That's the worst way to respond to a bad comment, and it breaks more than one of the site guidelines. Please review them: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18746788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18746788 and marked it off-topic.

Perhaps you should educate yourself about the fallacious logic and death cult-ism of incel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD2briZ6fB0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD2briZ6fB0

fromthestart 8y ago

So, one can not criticize the dating experience, and recognize that it is biased in favor of women, without being slandered as an incel? Why do you think more men are turning to such extremism? You think they are perpetually frustrated and bitter by choice? Remember when we used to call these men "geeks" and "nerds"? Why won't anyone acknowledge the validity of their involuntary suffering? These men are marginalized and exist on the outskirts of society for reasons beyond their choosing. Attractiveness is a continuum, and there's only so much one can do to raise ones percieved value to meet the standards of others. It isn't a secret that apps like tinder tend to make women even more selective.

empath75 8y ago
> These men are marginalized and exist on the outskirts of society for reasons beyond their choosing. I can assure you that the reason that most self professed incels are on the outskirts of society is that they’re fucking creepy. I mean have you read their subreddits. They make my skin crawl. And I have no idea what any of them look like.
- fromthestart 8y ago
  Inceldom is an extremist manifestion of a growing epidemic of loneliness. Frankly, they have nothing to do with this actual discussion, and stifle discussions around male loneliness. >is that they’re fucking creepy. That's the point. They're different. What does creepy mean? Difficulty with social norms? Unusual interests? Physical unnatractiveness? You think these are choices? Incels are just especially self aware and bitter "geeks" and "nerds" of yore, back before those terms were coopted by the mainstream. I think these men are bitter because they exist with the same needs for romance that you and I do, but have no realistic way of actualizing these desires. Their pain is involuntary and real. Look past the vileness of their rhetoric and understand that they are suffering.
  - watwut 8y ago
    Most of the incels discussion gives vibe of people who are completely socially isolated - not even really having friends or other regular social group which I would see as prerequisite to girlfriend. If there is no one the guy can get along with, it is unlikely he will be able to get along with a single girl. Additionally, quite a lot of them gives vibe of someone who is dangerous to be dated, plain as simple. If this is how they act from not having partner frustration, what they will do when a girl disagree with them over something important, when she has simply bad mood, when there are serious money or sickness problems affecting relationships, when his and her career clash, when they are sleep deprived due to baby etc? Answer: likely badly. I think he means creepy on scale that Elliot Rogers was creepy. Complaining about not dating hot girl while thinking about her mostly as status item to be admired by other guys. Finding it unfair throwing fit when ugly guy has a girlfriend. while not being able to hold conversation with anyone without becoming agressive for petty reasons. Seeing all the other guys as assholes. Finding it unfair that nice cloths and money did not magically made him girlfriend. All the while he was talking about how he is supreme gentleman.
    - satokema 8y ago
      This isn't really a good faith argument - I'm sure there are plenty of regular users on this site that fit into the bucket of "bad at dating" but have a good career, at least a few decent friends, and aren't quoting serial killers or vocal visitors of some dark internet hole. All the "incels are/worship serial killer weirdos" rhetoric does is politicize the subject into an unarguable tribal debate.
      - watwut 8y ago
        There is no bad faith in what I said. That is exactly my consulusion from reading it. Not killers really, but definitely vibe of people who tend to respond to interpersonal problems with abuse and retaliation. Also, they did not seemed to care about relationship with real person warts farts and compromises - they want girl in abstract with no effort to figure what would make real girl suitable partner for them personally except look. I have no way to judge career and don't care. But their grasp of how human relationships work was off from how I see people behave irl - frankly with most focus on rating and social status supposed to be acquired from pairing. It is also that part where dating is treated as game separate from other kind of relationships. It is not just how I see it work.
- b5 8y ago
  You're taking a bad-faith reading of OP's comments: they're not talking about the self-identified incels; they're talking about the majority of single men who are single involuntarily. The latter is the group of which the former are a part. They're not the same thing, and conflating them is disingenuous. OP raises a valid point about the increasing numbers of single men and the possible long-term health and societal effects of having (say) 20% of men single for their entire 20s. A certain toxic percentage will become incels -- and probably always would have become something like that -- but the remaining 95% are a largely new phenomenon and one I don't think is being taken seriously. We're into new territory here and we'll only find out the results in 10 or 20 years time. FWIW: I'm not an incel. I've been happily married for five years.

dang 8y ago

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar hell. That's the worst way to respond to a bad comment, and it breaks more than one of the site guidelines. Please review them: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18746788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18746788 and marked it off-topic.