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In the Tumblr ban threads, people mentioned that all of these companies should simply make their progressive web apps and give the finger to the puritan idiots

by pmlnr 8y ago

In the Tumblr ban threads, people mentioned that all of these companies should simply make their progressive web apps and give the finger to the puritan idiots calling these decisions. I agree. The questions, however, are: how much growth can be achieved without play store/ios app? Is it viable? If yes, how? Can art be more important for a site (and it's investors), than immediate, quick growth?

brian-armstrong 8y ago
I don't think they'll want to, if they're ad supported. Adblockers don't run on native apps, and in general apps have better access to relevant ad sell info. A lot of ad supported companies are giving up on the web.
- krn 8y ago
  I take this as the best explanation why Reddit is pushing its app so hard, even though it has a one of the most visited websites in the world. It's not about user engagement with content. It's about user engagement with ads.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Indeed. A lot of work has been put into degrading the mobile experience with banners and prompts and delays to force users onto the app. Sensible people use BaconReader, but I wonder how long that will be allowed to continue.
    - shostack 8y ago
      Are there in fact forced delays? Couldn't be sure it it was my connection or js bloat.
      - badpenny 8y ago
        Every third-party Reddit and Facebook app I've tried has seemed as if it was throttled or blocked.
    - snaky 8y ago
      Why not open source apps like RedReader? https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.quantumbadger.redreader/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.quantumbadger.redreader/
  - bhouston 8y ago
    yes, you can not block ads in a native app. And they are so annoying on the reddit mobile app.
    - pedrogpimenta 8y ago
      That depends. Blokada [1] does a pretty good job! [1] https://blokada.org/ https://blokada.org/
      - heavyset_go 8y ago
        Blokada is great, however I believe Reddit does a lot of paid native advertising and interweaving of ads within content. I don't believe the ads in the latter category are pulled from an ad server, they're served from the same source as real content. Could be wrong though, I haven't used Reddit in a while.
    - pmlnr 8y ago
      You can block hosts on rooted phone easily, so if it's an ad network, it can be done. If it's first party, or in-content, ala tumblr, it's not been done yet, as far as I'm aware - that doesn't make it impossible though.
    - wilgertvelinga 8y ago
      Yes you can, although it's slightly harder than installing a browser extension: https://pi-hole.net/ https://pi-hole.net/
  - bad_user 8y ago
    I’ve said it multiple times ... aggressive ad-blocking is hurting the open web, because publishers need a revenue stream to survive and they won’t go down without a fight. This means shitty native apps, walled gardens and DRM.
    - AlexandrB 8y ago
      Ads hurt the open web, because advertisers normally don't want to show up alongside even moderately risqué content. If we want sites with real freedom of expression, we have to find a real way to pay for it - via crowdfunding, micropayments, or whatever.
    - heavyset_go 8y ago
      > This means shitty native apps, walled gardens and DRM. This was the case before ad-blocking was popular. Native apps with spyware and malware were the norm before web apps became a viable way to ensure people couldn't copy software. DRM was around before most people had internet access, for example, CSS on DVDs was introduced in 1996[1]. For a lot of people, their first introduction the internet was through a walled garden[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_Scramble_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_Scramble_System [2] AOL's 'Walled Garden' (2000): https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB968104011203980910 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB968104011203980910
  - heavyset_go 8y ago
    There's also the fact that native apps can collect more data on a user than web apps.
- eli 8y ago
  Most people don’t run Adblock on mobile and probably aren’t getting any better ad rates running native ads vs mobile web.
  - snaky 8y ago
    Mobile app can gather a lot more user data.
    - eli 8y ago
      Yeah it can, but I don’t believe it generates much more revenue for the publisher.
  - brian-armstrong 8y ago
    I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I'd bet most Reddit users do run an ad blocker.
    - eli 8y ago
      On mobile web? I think I’d take the other side of that bet.
DanBC 8y ago
Tumblr was sharing images of child sexual abuse, not just regular porn. It's only when they discovered the images of child sexual abuse that they took action. They'd left user generated porn content alone for many years. That's not "puritan idiots", that's people who are aware of the harm caused by the distribution of images of child sexual abuse to the survivors of that abuse and to their business from law enforcement activity.
- yulaow 8y ago
  The problem is, their solution just destroyed whoever used nude art or in general their bodies as a mean of expressing themselves while doing nothing to abusers (especially pornbots are still active just as before)
  - DanBC 8y ago
    Sure, but they're not responding because they're puritan idiots, they're responding because not doing so risks their business. Specifically, they risked being added to European block lists in use by almost all EU ISPs. Of course there are ways around this, but no business wants to tell its users to install Tor Browser Bundle to visit a website.
    - yulaow 8y ago
      I understand this, what I am saying is that their current solution is totally ineffective and just PR, and if someone is gonna check the actual situation all the reasons that could put tumblr in the European block list are still there.
    - pmlnr 8y ago
      > not doing so risks their business The response should have been better filters for illegal content, not cutting off "adult" content. (" because in my opinion, there's nothing adulty in a fantasy artwork from the 70s which, the horror, shows both male and female uncovered breasts.)
      - 8y ago
thinkingemote 8y ago
With PWAs that are installed to a phone's home screen, and where Firefox is installed with privacy and blocking extensions, does it launch the website in a Firefox runtime with these extensions running? My question is, are PWAs a way for platforms to promote websites with less privacy and adblocking? Similar to how an electron based app which just runs a website (like Discord) can also get around user added blocking extensions.
- LeifCarrotson 8y ago
  Yes, but if getting around app store blocks is the only reason to use such a channel, the only apps that will be delivered this way are those that would be blocked in the app store. That's a tough crowd to support.

by pmlnr 8y ago

brian-armstrong 8y ago

I don't think they'll want to, if they're ad supported. Adblockers don't run on native apps, and in general apps have better access to relevant ad sell info. A lot of ad supported companies are giving up on the web.

krn 8y ago
I take this as the best explanation why Reddit is pushing its app so hard, even though it has a one of the most visited websites in the world. It's not about user engagement with content. It's about user engagement with ads.
- pjc50 8y ago
  Indeed. A lot of work has been put into degrading the mobile experience with banners and prompts and delays to force users onto the app. Sensible people use BaconReader, but I wonder how long that will be allowed to continue.
  - shostack 8y ago
    Are there in fact forced delays? Couldn't be sure it it was my connection or js bloat.
    - badpenny 8y ago
      Every third-party Reddit and Facebook app I've tried has seemed as if it was throttled or blocked.
  - snaky 8y ago
    Why not open source apps like RedReader? https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.quantumbadger.redreader/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.quantumbadger.redreader/
- bhouston 8y ago
  yes, you can not block ads in a native app. And they are so annoying on the reddit mobile app.
  - pedrogpimenta 8y ago
    That depends. Blokada [1] does a pretty good job! [1] https://blokada.org/ https://blokada.org/
    - heavyset_go 8y ago
      Blokada is great, however I believe Reddit does a lot of paid native advertising and interweaving of ads within content. I don't believe the ads in the latter category are pulled from an ad server, they're served from the same source as real content. Could be wrong though, I haven't used Reddit in a while.
  - pmlnr 8y ago
    You can block hosts on rooted phone easily, so if it's an ad network, it can be done. If it's first party, or in-content, ala tumblr, it's not been done yet, as far as I'm aware - that doesn't make it impossible though.
  - wilgertvelinga 8y ago
    Yes you can, although it's slightly harder than installing a browser extension: https://pi-hole.net/ https://pi-hole.net/
- bad_user 8y ago
  I’ve said it multiple times ... aggressive ad-blocking is hurting the open web, because publishers need a revenue stream to survive and they won’t go down without a fight. This means shitty native apps, walled gardens and DRM.
  - AlexandrB 8y ago
    Ads hurt the open web, because advertisers normally don't want to show up alongside even moderately risqué content. If we want sites with real freedom of expression, we have to find a real way to pay for it - via crowdfunding, micropayments, or whatever.
  - heavyset_go 8y ago
    > This means shitty native apps, walled gardens and DRM. This was the case before ad-blocking was popular. Native apps with spyware and malware were the norm before web apps became a viable way to ensure people couldn't copy software. DRM was around before most people had internet access, for example, CSS on DVDs was introduced in 1996[1]. For a lot of people, their first introduction the internet was through a walled garden[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_Scramble_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_Scramble_System [2] AOL's 'Walled Garden' (2000): https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB968104011203980910 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB968104011203980910
- heavyset_go 8y ago
  There's also the fact that native apps can collect more data on a user than web apps.
eli 8y ago
Most people don’t run Adblock on mobile and probably aren’t getting any better ad rates running native ads vs mobile web.
- snaky 8y ago
  Mobile app can gather a lot more user data.
  - eli 8y ago
    Yeah it can, but I don’t believe it generates much more revenue for the publisher.
- brian-armstrong 8y ago
  I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I'd bet most Reddit users do run an ad blocker.
  - eli 8y ago
    On mobile web? I think I’d take the other side of that bet.

DanBC 8y ago

Tumblr was sharing images of child sexual abuse, not just regular porn. It's only when they discovered the images of child sexual abuse that they took action. They'd left user generated porn content alone for many years. That's not "puritan idiots", that's people who are aware of the harm caused by the distribution of images of child sexual abuse to the survivors of that abuse and to their business from law enforcement activity.

yulaow 8y ago
The problem is, their solution just destroyed whoever used nude art or in general their bodies as a mean of expressing themselves while doing nothing to abusers (especially pornbots are still active just as before)
- DanBC 8y ago
  Sure, but they're not responding because they're puritan idiots, they're responding because not doing so risks their business. Specifically, they risked being added to European block lists in use by almost all EU ISPs. Of course there are ways around this, but no business wants to tell its users to install Tor Browser Bundle to visit a website.
  - yulaow 8y ago
    I understand this, what I am saying is that their current solution is totally ineffective and just PR, and if someone is gonna check the actual situation all the reasons that could put tumblr in the European block list are still there.
  - pmlnr 8y ago
    > not doing so risks their business The response should have been better filters for illegal content, not cutting off "adult" content. (" because in my opinion, there's nothing adulty in a fantasy artwork from the 70s which, the horror, shows both male and female uncovered breasts.)
    - 8y ago

thinkingemote 8y ago

With PWAs that are installed to a phone's home screen, and where Firefox is installed with privacy and blocking extensions, does it launch the website in a Firefox runtime with these extensions running? My question is, are PWAs a way for platforms to promote websites with less privacy and adblocking? Similar to how an electron based app which just runs a website (like Discord) can also get around user added blocking extensions.

LeifCarrotson 8y ago
Yes, but if getting around app store blocks is the only reason to use such a channel, the only apps that will be delivered this way are those that would be blocked in the app store. That's a tough crowd to support.