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I think the point of that is to distinguish between stuff that is nudity but not of a sexual nature (like Aphrodite of Milos[1]) from stuff that could be deemed

I think the point of that is to distinguish between stuff that is nudity but not of a sexual nature (like Aphrodite of Milos[1]) from stuff that could be deemed as corrupting young kids? But I’m guessing there. As a European I do think the Americans get far to uptight about nudity. There’s nothing inherently wrong with nakedness, it’s not automatically sexual. Yet I’m constantly amazed how much casual violence is in family TV (Simpson’s, Tom and Jerry, etc). I find it weird that cutting a persons limbs off is more acceptable than a naked form. But I guess that’s a cultural thing. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_de_Milo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_de_Milo

thaumasiotes 8y ago
> nudity but not of a sexual nature (like Aphrodite of Milos) Pretty strange to call this "nudity, but not of a sexual nature". She is literally the incarnation of the concept of sex.
- code_duck 8y ago
  I think what they would say is that the statue was not created nor are photos provided with an aim to ‘appeal to a prurient interest’.
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    It would be hard to defend that claim as to the creation of the statue. It's easier as to the provision of photos today, but opinions still vary.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - pmlnr 8y ago
      Edit: my comment was wrong, ignore it. --- You need to get a bit more in touch with history; that statue has nothing to do with "sexually gratifying". It was in the days when minos culture fashion looked like this: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=minos+culture+fashion&t=ffab&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=minos+culture+fashion&t=ffab&iax=i...
      - thaumasiotes 8y ago
        > It was in the days when minos culture fashion looked like this The Minoan culture is more or less contemporaneous with the Mycenaean Greeks who fell in the 12th century BC, ushering in the Greek Dark Age which lasted about 400 years. Wikipedia dates the Venus de Milo to the late second century BC. Aphrodite is not even attested in Mycenaean records. You're off by over a thousand years. As such, I'll respectfully reject your suggestion that I need to get more in touch with history.
        pmlnr 8y ago
        My memory tricked me. You are correct. I'm sorry.
    - code_duck 8y ago
      I have no doubt whatsoever that historians could easily demonstrate that the statue was not created as a form of pornography. It’s a religious icon.
      - thaumasiotes 8y ago
        I'll quote from Greek Religion: Archaic and Classical ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EU96DSK/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EU96DSK/ ) (I'm pulling text from subchapter III.2.7, "Aphrodite", but my pulls are not necessarily contiguous in the original.) > Aphrodite's sphere of activity is immediately and sensibly apparent: the joyous consummation of sexuality. Aphrodisia, aphrodisiazein as a verb, denotes quite simply the act of love, and in the Odyssey, the name of the goddess is already used in the same sense. > However impious the apotheosis of sexuality may seem in light of the Christian tradition, modern sensibility can nevertheless also appreciate how in the experience of love the loved one and indeed the whole world appears transfigured and joyously intensified, making all else seem insignificant: a tremendous power is revealed, a great deity. > Behind the figure of Aphrodite there clearly stands the ancient Semitic Goddess of love, Ishtar-Astarte [...the text lists many correspondences between the two deities...] In the process of transmission from East to West a part was probably played by frontal representations of the naked goddess > Unabashed acceptance of sexuality is, however, not a matter of course even in Greece. > In the iconography, the naked oriental figure was supplanted as early as the first half of the seventh century by the normal representation of the goddess [emphasis added] with long, sumptuous robes and the high crown of the goddess, polos. Fine attire is Aphrodite's specialty, most notably necklaces and occasionally brightly colored robes intended to give an oriental effect. > It was not until about 340 that the statue of a naked Aphrodite apparently preparing to take a bath was created for the sanctuary in Cnidos by Praxiteles; for centuries this figure remained the most renowned representation of the goddess of love, the embodiment of all womanly charms. The statue was displayed in the round so that it could be admired from all sides; Greek sources suggest that it excited more voyeurism than piety. That is the tradition into which the Venus de Milo falls. Let me suggest to you that your ideas of how people can view their religious icons are rather more restricted than historical practice would justify. We're talking about a statue showing the apotheosis of sexuality flaunting her supernatural sex appeal. Sexual content was routine even outside the context of Aphrodite specifically. For example: > At the doors of the anaktoron [in Samothrace] two bronze statues of ithyphallic [priapic] Hermes were to be seen. Originally these could have been just phallic boundary markers, but the mythical explanation was that Hermes had got into this state of arousal because he beheld Persephone. (Subchapter VI.1.3, "The Kabeiroi and Samothrace") EDIT: From Wikipedia, on the Aphrodite of Cnidos: > The statue [...] was so lifelike that it even aroused men sexually, as witnessed by the tradition that a young man broke into the temple at night and attempted to copulate with the statue, leaving a stain on it.
- laumars 8y ago
  The point being that is art, not pornography. Re the people who voted me down, I’m curious if you’ve done so because you consider that statue porn or because you don’t consider it art? Are you able to elaborate please :)
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    The statue is overt sexual content. See my sidethread comment, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18745277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18745277 .
    - laumars 8y ago
      “Overt sexual content”? She’s just stood there. That’s not a sexual pose, she’s not engaging in sex. Even if I take your point about the figure it depicts, it’s about as subtle a sexual icon as it gets.
      - thaumasiotes 8y ago
        She's just standing there... naked. That is not the norm for a statue of Aphrodite. It derives from the tradition of the nude Aphrodite of Knidos, which... made huge waves for titillation value: > According to an account by Pliny the Elder, Praxiteles sculpted both a nude statue and a draped statue of Aphrodite. The city of Kos purchased the draped statue, because they felt the nude version was indecent and reflected poorly on their city, while the city of Knidos purchased the nude statue. > The statue [...] was so lifelike that it even aroused men sexually, as witnessed by the tradition that a young man broke into the temple at night and attempted to copulate with the statue, leaving a stain on it. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite_of_Knidos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite_of_Knidos ) Just how strongly can we connect the Venus de Milo to the Aphrodite of Knidos? Well, it's a naked Aphrodite in a similar pose. Similar enough that it was originally attributed to Praxiteles. Aphrodite of Knidos is just standing there too, about to take a bath. Imagine me posting a photo to Facebook showing a woman caught in the act of getting into her bathtub. She's not engaging in sex! Then again, videos of this exact subject matter are common on porn sites. Imagine arguing that a still of Marilyn Monroe's dress getting blown up around her hips is about art, and not about sexual titillation.
rdiddly 8y ago
Not only is nudity not automatically sexual, sex is not automatically (or even remotely) evil. It's good and wholesome.
distances 8y ago
> As a European I do think the Americans get far to uptight about nudity. There’s nothing inherently wrong with nakedness, it’s not automatically sexual. Yet I’m constantly amazed how much casual violence is in family TV (Simpson’s, Tom and Jerry, etc). And random acts of violence in even light comedy shows that shun everything sexual. Really grates me when they're celebrated instead of prosecuted for an assault.

thaumasiotes 8y ago

> nudity but not of a sexual nature (like Aphrodite of Milos) Pretty strange to call this "nudity, but not of a sexual nature". She is literally the incarnation of the concept of sex.

code_duck 8y ago
I think what they would say is that the statue was not created nor are photos provided with an aim to ‘appeal to a prurient interest’.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  It would be hard to defend that claim as to the creation of the statue. It's easier as to the provision of photos today, but opinions still vary.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - pmlnr 8y ago
    Edit: my comment was wrong, ignore it. --- You need to get a bit more in touch with history; that statue has nothing to do with "sexually gratifying". It was in the days when minos culture fashion looked like this: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=minos+culture+fashion&t=ffab&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=minos+culture+fashion&t=ffab&iax=i...
    - thaumasiotes 8y ago
      > It was in the days when minos culture fashion looked like this The Minoan culture is more or less contemporaneous with the Mycenaean Greeks who fell in the 12th century BC, ushering in the Greek Dark Age which lasted about 400 years. Wikipedia dates the Venus de Milo to the late second century BC. Aphrodite is not even attested in Mycenaean records. You're off by over a thousand years. As such, I'll respectfully reject your suggestion that I need to get more in touch with history.
      - pmlnr 8y ago
        My memory tricked me. You are correct. I'm sorry.
  - code_duck 8y ago
    I have no doubt whatsoever that historians could easily demonstrate that the statue was not created as a form of pornography. It’s a religious icon.
    - thaumasiotes 8y ago
      I'll quote from Greek Religion: Archaic and Classical ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EU96DSK/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EU96DSK/ ) (I'm pulling text from subchapter III.2.7, "Aphrodite", but my pulls are not necessarily contiguous in the original.) > Aphrodite's sphere of activity is immediately and sensibly apparent: the joyous consummation of sexuality. Aphrodisia, aphrodisiazein as a verb, denotes quite simply the act of love, and in the Odyssey, the name of the goddess is already used in the same sense. > However impious the apotheosis of sexuality may seem in light of the Christian tradition, modern sensibility can nevertheless also appreciate how in the experience of love the loved one and indeed the whole world appears transfigured and joyously intensified, making all else seem insignificant: a tremendous power is revealed, a great deity. > Behind the figure of Aphrodite there clearly stands the ancient Semitic Goddess of love, Ishtar-Astarte [...the text lists many correspondences between the two deities...] In the process of transmission from East to West a part was probably played by frontal representations of the naked goddess > Unabashed acceptance of sexuality is, however, not a matter of course even in Greece. > In the iconography, the naked oriental figure was supplanted as early as the first half of the seventh century by the normal representation of the goddess [emphasis added] with long, sumptuous robes and the high crown of the goddess, polos. Fine attire is Aphrodite's specialty, most notably necklaces and occasionally brightly colored robes intended to give an oriental effect. > It was not until about 340 that the statue of a naked Aphrodite apparently preparing to take a bath was created for the sanctuary in Cnidos by Praxiteles; for centuries this figure remained the most renowned representation of the goddess of love, the embodiment of all womanly charms. The statue was displayed in the round so that it could be admired from all sides; Greek sources suggest that it excited more voyeurism than piety. That is the tradition into which the Venus de Milo falls. Let me suggest to you that your ideas of how people can view their religious icons are rather more restricted than historical practice would justify. We're talking about a statue showing the apotheosis of sexuality flaunting her supernatural sex appeal. Sexual content was routine even outside the context of Aphrodite specifically. For example: > At the doors of the anaktoron [in Samothrace] two bronze statues of ithyphallic [priapic] Hermes were to be seen. Originally these could have been just phallic boundary markers, but the mythical explanation was that Hermes had got into this state of arousal because he beheld Persephone. (Subchapter VI.1.3, "The Kabeiroi and Samothrace") EDIT: From Wikipedia, on the Aphrodite of Cnidos: > The statue [...] was so lifelike that it even aroused men sexually, as witnessed by the tradition that a young man broke into the temple at night and attempted to copulate with the statue, leaving a stain on it.
laumars 8y ago
The point being that is art, not pornography. Re the people who voted me down, I’m curious if you’ve done so because you consider that statue porn or because you don’t consider it art? Are you able to elaborate please :)
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  The statue is overt sexual content. See my sidethread comment, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18745277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18745277 .
  - laumars 8y ago
    “Overt sexual content”? She’s just stood there. That’s not a sexual pose, she’s not engaging in sex. Even if I take your point about the figure it depicts, it’s about as subtle a sexual icon as it gets.
    - thaumasiotes 8y ago
      She's just standing there... naked. That is not the norm for a statue of Aphrodite. It derives from the tradition of the nude Aphrodite of Knidos, which... made huge waves for titillation value: > According to an account by Pliny the Elder, Praxiteles sculpted both a nude statue and a draped statue of Aphrodite. The city of Kos purchased the draped statue, because they felt the nude version was indecent and reflected poorly on their city, while the city of Knidos purchased the nude statue. > The statue [...] was so lifelike that it even aroused men sexually, as witnessed by the tradition that a young man broke into the temple at night and attempted to copulate with the statue, leaving a stain on it. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite_of_Knidos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite_of_Knidos ) Just how strongly can we connect the Venus de Milo to the Aphrodite of Knidos? Well, it's a naked Aphrodite in a similar pose. Similar enough that it was originally attributed to Praxiteles. Aphrodite of Knidos is just standing there too, about to take a bath. Imagine me posting a photo to Facebook showing a woman caught in the act of getting into her bathtub. She's not engaging in sex! Then again, videos of this exact subject matter are common on porn sites. Imagine arguing that a still of Marilyn Monroe's dress getting blown up around her hips is about art, and not about sexual titillation.

rdiddly 8y ago

Not only is nudity not automatically sexual, sex is not automatically (or even remotely) evil. It's good and wholesome.

distances 8y ago

> As a European I do think the Americans get far to uptight about nudity. There’s nothing inherently wrong with nakedness, it’s not automatically sexual. Yet I’m constantly amazed how much casual violence is in family TV (Simpson’s, Tom and Jerry, etc). And random acts of violence in even light comedy shows that shun everything sexual. Really grates me when they're celebrated instead of prosecuted for an assault.