11 ms·

"Please take this down and write your own book."

170 points by bobbywilson0 16y ago

ohyes 16y ago
This is clearly not plagiarism. At no point did the translator take credit for the original work. There is a definition for plagiarism; it involves taking credit for someone else's original work. Zed would probably have done better by simply quoting the license and asking him to take it down (because of copywrite infringement) instead of incorrectly accusing him of plagiarism (which implies he was doing the translation in bad faith).
- ohyes 16y ago
  Factual correctness warrants down vote? Seriously? "the wrongful appropriation, close imitation, or purloining and publication, of another author's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions, and the representation of them as one's own original work." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism). This was not plagiarism.
frou_dh 16y ago
It must suck to have your everyday online activities tracked, and your character traits debated at length by strangers. Look at the title of this HN post, pure celebrity drama-bait.
mathgladiator 16y ago
At some level, you have to love zed. He gives and gives to the world, and the world just craps on him. Of course, I have a feeling that his personal brand isn't going to be helped by this exchange.
- protomyth 16y ago
  Well, considering he is doing blank templates and did a "how to" blog post, I think he is being more reasonable than anyone should expect. What they did was rude. [edit s/black/blank/]
- mtsmith85 16y ago
  I would disagree about his personal brand, actually. I think that this is an example of Zed -- part and parcel. (And let me say right from the start, I love this guy's work and all that he brings to the table.) Zed has given immense amounts of code and work to the web community as a whole. It would be characteristically unlike Zed to not defend his work from what he views (and many others, I assume, including myself) as a savaging of his work. So if you view it from that perspective? This is just par for the course with Zed. I, for one, appreciate someone who is so passionate about their work that they go to such lengths to defend it. (Edited: Forgot me some commas.)
  - kenjackson 16y ago
    * I, for one, appreciate someone who is so passionate about their work that they go to such lengths to defend it.* The ironic thing is that Zed's letter is similar to Bill Gates's letter to hobbyists 30 years, yet Bill has been historically flamed by the hacker community (requiring me to pay for software, is a larger crime than me stealing it). I wonder if identity politics play a larger role than ethical admiration.
    - ebneter 16y ago
      Except that Zed has made lots of open source contributions -- just not this one. He does get to pick and choose how he wishes to release things.
      - kenjackson 16y ago
        I don't think anyone is arguing against what you're saying. It's the manner in which you do it. When I'm in the grcoery store and someone leaves their cart in the way I usually say, "You're blocking the path, could you move it?" Never had an issue. I could also say, "Jerkwad, would you move your cart, or continue to be a classless lowlife and I'll have someone from the store move it for you?" I just find people to make such pronouncements to be over the top and people I generally would not associate with. And unfortunately there are people like that. It just felt like Zed trended that direction, IMO. And clearly it appears that many in HN think its perfectly acceptable.
- Loic 16y ago
  Zed has principles and follow them. His personal brand (I don't like the term, but I am not a native English speaker and have difficulties to come up with better) is not going to suffer, the opposite. He is just requesting respect for his work and the basic copy rights to be followed. I like people with principles.
  - crux_ 16y ago
    I don't like the term either. Reputation is a nice substitute, although it lacks the connotations of treating a person as though they were a corporation-style entity with a marketing department. ... which, come to think of it, is one of the reasons I hate the phrase "personal brand."
- nkurz 16y ago
  I've been disappointed with the tone of some of Zed's comments here on HN, but this one struck me as perfectly polite and reasonable. His brand quality just got a big boost for me. I appreciate principles. Not everyone has to like every brand, and appealing to the least common denominator isn't always the best strategy.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- famousactress 16y ago
  Really? I read it differently. I thought both Zed and Martin came off as passionate, and relatively well-reasoned. Nothing Zed said here seemed over the top or out of line considering the context. Hopefully people who read over the exchange imagine themselves waking up to the same scenario.
- cowboyhero 16y ago
  Speaking of brands .. if I were the guys running Engine Yard I'd be reaaaaally pissed right about now.
Jabbles 16y ago
Drama! Seriously though, everyone should be aware that "free as in beer" and "free as in speech" are not the same thing. And they should be aware of which case applies.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
charlief 16y ago
This was originally posted by martinemde looking for support and then flagged down here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1873881 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1873881
- khingebjerg 16y ago
  Perhaps because of the provocative title. I actually think that it shows even less class from martinemde, that he posted that himself.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  "I messaged you on Twitter and contacted you by email to try to give you knowledge of it. I was quite public about doing it as a _why day project. I made a good faith effort to let you know what I was working on. I even knew you were working on having a learn code the hard way thing and I wanted to contribute but there's no clear outline of your goals or how you expect people to contribute. This is my understanding of what you'd expect for contribution." I tend to support the martinemde here. It seems he tried contact and was ignored. As much as Zed's coding skills are respected (I never looked into his code myself, but I trust my peers) I have to wonder if they are worth his toxicity. "have some class", "guys like you are the reason I stopped doing Ruby", "Ruby hippie"... Come on...
  - tvon 16y ago
    > It seems he tried contact and was ignored. I don't think silence is consent in this case. The whole thing seems like an obviously bad idea to me...
    - rbanffy 16y ago
      I suppose most programmers find it better to ask for forgiveness then for permission.
      - Semiapies 16y ago
        Whether or not that's true, programmers who go for that approach need to be good at apologizing.
mcknz 16y ago
But honestly Zed, the web is considered "public domain" and you should be happy I just didn't "lift" your whole book and put my name on it!
- swannodette 16y ago
  I hope sarcasm is intended here, if so- that's funny.
  - mcav 16y ago
    http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1868736 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1868736
  - nkurz 16y ago
    Certainly it is intended to be sarcasm, but it's a meme that we should try to resist. Rather than regurgitating a reference to show cool insider status, we should look at the situation and reflect on how it is the same and how it is different. Flag it and move on.
  - mcknz 16y ago
    Thought it interesting how absurd the "Monica" situation seems, yet we often engage in essentially the same behavior ourselves. That just doesn't sound as good on a bumper sticker. EDIT: clarification
    - ay 16y ago
      Monica was the original author - did you mean to write the name of that lady who is (was?) with the Cooks Source ?
- 16s 16y ago
  You'd be amazed at how many dumb asses actually believe that. No idea what the word copyright means.
jasonkester 16y ago
This is a good illustration of how tone doesn't come across well in writing. Reading the comment by the original author, it sounded like a friendly request to please take the content down. The guy whose site it was clearly didn't see it that way and responded as though he'd been viscously attacked. He ends up coming across as quite angry, when more likely he was just rattled and feeling defensive. I guess the takeaway is to always take a step back before responding when you feel attacked. Chances are you're not being attacked nearly as harshly as you think.
- mcknz 16y ago
  "have some class" was probably a little over the top, but I can understand the frustration.
  - pmjordan 16y ago
    I don't know, would you call copyright infringement a "classy" thing to do?
    - mcknz 16y ago
      not at all -- just thought that was the only part that martinemde could possibly object to.
      - pmjordan 16y ago
        My money's on being caught red-handed at copyright infringement. Plus an unhealthy level of entitlement (I'm a fucking Engine Yard programmer for fuck sake.)
        aplusbi 16y ago
        The Engine Yard comment was meant to be taken as "I use your stuff (mongrel) and respect you. I had no intention of wronging you." As for "being caught red-handed" it's a matter of intent. Martin didn't mean to wrong Zed, he was inspired by Zed but ultimately messed up (by assuming it was okay to modify the text).
rubyrescue 16y ago
"I'm a fucking Engine Yard programmer for fuck sake." - what an arrogant statement.
- scott_s 16y ago
  I read it not as "I'm an amazing programmer because I work for Engine Yard," but "I work for a company that clearly depends on your work - I respect what you've done."
  - dsteinweg 16y ago
    After hearing your interpretation, I realize that probably does make more sense within the context of the paragraph. But I certainly heard it the other way first. That's probably another good example of meaning being lost in text compared to spoken word.
  - pjscott 16y ago
    On behalf of everyone who tries to communicate over the internet, I'd like to thank you for assuming the nicer interpretation. It's easy to misinterpret someone's tone, and written communication goes so much more smoothly when people avoid making angry assumptions.
    - Semiapies 16y ago
      I'm not sure "Hey, I write stuff using your software, you should tolerate my mistreatment of you better!" is a nicer interpretation.
      - aplusbi 16y ago
        No, but the "Hey I write stuff using your software, I never meant to mistreat you." is.
    - bmm6o 16y ago
      It's not just about choosing to read the more charitable interpretation. The second reading requires more context than the first one. If you aren't aware of the additional facts you mention, it's very difficult to read the comment in a positive way.
rflrob 16y ago
Regardless of whether Zed's tone in the first post was too harsh or not, I think everything from "Guys like you are the reason I stopped doing Ruby" onwards was just fanning the flames unnecessarily.
JanezStupar 16y ago
This is Zeeed Shaaaaw!!! I have never met the guy, but I surely hope that I get the privilege some day, even if he just picks on me and tells me that my work is worthless piece of junk and that if it implodes in a second it would be a service to the world - because that might be single most insightful and sincere analysis one might receive. Kudos to anyone with a pair, that is capable of speaking their mind in today's "politically correct" world ridden with hypocrisy.
- forsaken 16y ago
  Zed is actually really nice in person.
  - masklinn 16y ago
    He doesn't come across badly here. Stern, but fair if a bit harsh. And the other guy comes across as a working device of non-standard proportions.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    Seeing many of the responses make me wonder whether he's even really as ogrish online as some people suggest. Most of what I've seen pointed out by angry folks seem to be responses to things those people aren't citing. Seeing the full exchange in this case, I'm hard put to see anything unusual with what Shaw said. Nice people and polite people get justifiably angry, too.
- citricsquid 16y ago
  Like it or not Zed is entirely right here. It's his work, the guy had no permission, it has nothing to do with being "politically correct" it has everything to do with no being a dick and respecting a persons ownership and the effort they put into something. Whether or not Zed is the biggest dick in the world is irrelevant.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    Absolutely. It's one thing to take issue with the tone of someone voicing an opinion or reacting to your opinion, but it's another to whine that someone's not being friendly when he's telling you to stop stealing his work.
brettbender 16y ago
Love the entitlement evident in his reply, "I'm a fucking Engine Yard programmer for fuck sake. We promote mongrel as a stable deployment stack" - does he think the fact that they promote zed's work means it's okay to ignore zed's rights regarding his own work? Also, how could anyone take issue with the maintainer of https://github.com/martinemde/dicks https://github.com/martinemde/dicks and http://dicks.heroku.com http://dicks.heroku.com ?
- parfe 16y ago
  I don't think irony is the right word, but I got a good chuckle out of this martimeemde guy. He is quite literally the embodiment of why zed left ruby. Someone profiting from Zed's work on mongrel yet at the same time giving Zed shit. Zed wrote a Python book and explicitly said it shouldn't be ported to Ruby. Then this ruby guy comes along and misappropriates the book and then whines that Zed isn't giving him enough for free.
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    > Zed wrote a Python book and explicitly said it shouldn't be ported to Ruby. Just to make it clear, Zed said that his book shouldn't be 'ported' to _anything_. An inspired work based on Ruby already exists, by @krainboltgreene, and Zed is aware and supportive.
- aplusbi 16y ago
  I'm pretty sure Martin meant that respects and appreciates Zed's work as he uses mongrel, and that he was not in any way trying to be disrespectful to Zed in copying the book.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
16s 16y ago
Zed should have sent a DMCA notice to github.
- 16s 16y ago
  http://help.github.com/dmca/ http://help.github.com/dmca/ For some reason can't edit my original comment. So replied to myself.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    After a certain period of time, you can't edit a comment you've made. Not sure of the exact period.
xentronium 16y ago
I'm probably gonna get downvoted, but now I'm quite sure that web really IS public domain. We just have to state it explicitly. From now on gonna use public domain license on any public work I produce. Who's with me?
- nickpinkston 16y ago
  Well, there's copyright's all over the web, and anything without it is common law'ed into being copyrighted - so no. Personally, I go by the mantra of "if you post it, anyone can use it how they like". Sure, Zed is within his legal rights to ask for this, but I'm surprised no one is viewing this from the angle of the Ruby community losing a (possibly) valuable resource because "Zed's brand" has to be maintained... Seems like everyone is so sensitive about the sanctity of their ideas.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    As linked elsewhere: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1739890 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1739890 Copy & paste probably won't make a useful Ruby book. "Seems like everyone is so sensitive about the sanctity of their ideas." That's the pain of dealing with other human beings as if they are human beings and not just web sites or github repositories.
    - nickpinkston 16y ago
      My argument isn't that this Ruby version is so compelling it deserves to exist. I think restricting creativity "because I made it" is a stupid reason. Maybe others would have (are?) making useful "X The Hard Way" books stop because of this. I don't see what the benefit of him restricting it is.
joshuacc 16y ago
Interestingly, Martin has now updated the readme https://github.com/martinemde/learn-ruby-the-hard-way#readme https://github.com/martinemde/learn-ruby-the-hard-way#readme He concedes both of Zed's main points: 1. That he didn't have a legal right to "translate" the book 2. That "translating" the book from Python to Ruby didn't work all that well anyway The rest of the message boils down to a complaint that Zed wasn't nice enough in his takedown request. While Zed could have phrased things more nicely, he wasn't especially rude given the context of clear plagiarism and copyright violation.
- 16s 16y ago
  Not nice? He could have sent a settlement offer... pay me X dollars for damaging my reputation as an author and I will promise not to sue you. Some may argue that Zed was not "damaged" by this juvenile act, but a good lawyer would have no problem proving damage if push came to shove.
  - aplusbi 16y ago
    And he could have politely asked Martin to take it down. Zed was being "not nice" no matter how you look at it. He could have been worse, but that's like saying you shouldn't be mad because I punched you in the stomach instead of the face. Edit: okay, the analogy is a strawman but seriously, just because someone could have been worse doesn't excuse their behavior. Telling someone they have no class is rude, especially when it's pretty clear that Martin wasn't trying to plagiarize Zed's book - he was just confused about its licensing.
    - Semiapies 16y ago
      The bit that gets me about the defenses of Emde: He "punched" Shaw. Admittedly, this is a point that people defending the guy (and from the current state of the project's readme, himself) only acknowledge in the most grudging way, but it's there - Edme wronged the guy. But I'm to take it that Shaw is wrong because he's not friendly in his response to that? It's trite to make remarks about Asperger, social dysfunction among geeks, etc., but there is something remarkable about the Yeah, I did something blatantly wrong, but he was mean to me when he told me to stop doing it, and that's what's important! attitude put forth and defended. In most parts of modern society, the honest response would be along the lines of, "Dude, you're being a dick."
lhnz 16y ago
If the guy credited him and Zed's book was free online, then I really think Zed is doing the coding world a disservice here...
- lhnz 16y ago
  I'm getting downvoted, so I'll expand: If you make ethical judgments directly from the license then Zed Shaw is right. But Martin hadn't really done much wrong. The book was free online, and it would be classed as fair use by many people if it had been made using music, film or tv. He also made sure to credit Zed for the text, and only an idiot would think that Zed was able to change his text to fit the code better so I don't think it would reflect back on Zed badly at all... Then again, in my opinion, what is important is that there are more beginning code examples to read in Ruby. Bullshit over rights or hatred of whole programming communities be damned.
jpcx01 16y ago
Someone, please tell me where there is a copyright notice anywhere on http://learnpythonthehardway.org/ http://learnpythonthehardway.org/ or on the PDF http://learnpythonthehardway.org/static/LearnPythonTheHardWay.pdf http://learnpythonthehardway.org/static/LearnPythonTheHardWa... If he's so fanatical about copyright, why can't he post something about it? The culture developers are used to on github is forking people's work and tweaking it (while still giving attribution to the author). It's not totally shocking that someone would accidentally apply this philosophy to this book. Telling someone he has "no class" for doing this is just being a dick. But then again, its Zed D Shaw. He earned that middle name.
- FraaJad 16y ago
  Before you attack someone's name you should do your homework. 1. he has his name on the book. That is sufficient to claim copyright. There is no need for additional copyright notices. 2. The source to the book was not on github. The martinemde guy put up the code on github. The original source lives in a fossil repository.
- johnny22 16y ago
  copyright is implicit in many places isn't it?
  - dctoedt 16y ago
    In the U.S., and AFAIK in much of the rest of the world, copyright arises automatically, without the need for either registration or a copyright notice, once the "original work of authorship" is "fixed" in a "tangible medium of expression" (which can include saving to disk). See generally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Obtaining_copyright http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Obtaining_copyright
    - nroach 16y ago
      While the copyright itself can arise without registration, the ability to file suit in federal court for infringement of the copyright arises only once registered. Registration can take place after the date of infringement. For more see http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#register http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#register
voodootikigod 16y ago
The worst part of this situation is how martinemde is portending himself to be a "translator" like from English to Spanish, ignorant of the fact that you even need permission to do that. http://twitter.com/martinemde http://twitter.com/martinemde Also its pretty crappy how the Ruby Protection Squad came to his rescue with blind hate for Zed throwing comments like "Wow didn't even know who Zed Shaw was, now the first thing I learned about him is that he's a total d-bag" - http://twitter.com/PeteTheSadPanda/status/598669095084033 http://twitter.com/PeteTheSadPanda/status/598669095084033 Yes Zed doesn't always say things gently, but what he did say was 100% truth. Regardless of if you like what he says you have to respect 1. the truth and 2. who was really in the wrong here. Final note: this guy could have buried it by just deleting the whole repo, but left it up to seem like the "martyr" - that is what kills me the most.
- brown9-2 16y ago
  I think your first point here is excellent, but do we really need to care about what some random (as far as I can tell) Twitter user thinks about Zed? On the Internet you can find a negative comment about anyone by someone, somewhere.
andjones 16y ago
Although I understand the author's desire to not have his work copied, I think he stepped across the line when he used a personal attack: "Guys like you are the reason I stopped doing Ruby."
ddemchuk 16y ago
Why do people take the time to digitally bicker with veteran trolls? We're all professionals, this isn't something you want your name attached to on the "nothing is ever forgotten" internet.
mdonahoe 16y ago
Interesting. On the page about the book[1], Zed also links to How To Think Like a Computer Scientist, another popular book for learning Python. Allen Downey was the first author on that book, but initially he wrote it in Java: "I released the book under the GNU Free Documentation License, which allows users to copy, modify, and distribute the book. What happened next is the cool part. Jeff Elkner, a high school teacher in Virginia, adopted my book and translated it into Python. He sent me a copy of his translation, and I had the unusual experience of learning Python by reading my own book."[2] It's funny that the same thing is happening here, but Zed has a very different reaction than Allen's. [1]: http://learnpythonthehardway.org/index http://learnpythonthehardway.org/index [2]: http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/html/book001.html http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/html/book001.html
- JshWright 16y ago
  It would only be "the same thing" if Zed chose to release his content under the GNU Free Documentation License, which he did not. It's his content, and he can do with it what he choses. If he doesn't want folks to "copy, modify, and distribute" his content, that's fine with me (not that it matters, since it's _his_ content).
  - jpcx01 16y ago
    Really? You see no similarities between these 2 cases? I only see one big difference. One author cares about only himself and his own little world
    - JshWright 16y ago
      I'm not even sure this is worth replying to, but what the heck... Zed has absolutely no moral obligation to write stuff for free and release it for anyone to do whatever they want with. Do you express the same moral outrage over every book in the library with a copyright notice printed on it? I surely hope that every piece of code and content that you ever create is released under a license that allows anyone to do what they please with it, otherwise... you don't have a moral leg to stand on.
steveklabnik 16y ago
The "good riddance" posts really sadden me. I've generally found the Ruby community to be a great place, and then comments like these come along...
grandalf 16y ago
Disclaimer: I'm commenting on this thread only to help Zed generate more publicity/buzz for his book, which was surely the reason why he was a dick to Martin about it :) People understand clearly when someone like "The Situation" acts like a dick to gain notoriety, but many programmers seem not to be able to understand when a programmer does it. This is very effective schtick, and Zed has inspired a few others of late. Bottom line: Zed is a nice guy and Martin is a nice guy.
sp4rki 16y ago
Why are a lot of people missing stuff like this: "have some class and use your own words and write your own book" and this "Guys like you are the reason I stopped doing Ruby"? I agree with Zed that the idea was borderline useless since both languages have their ways and a direct translation lacks focus anyway. I also agree that it's Zed's work, and he granted use of his work with a license which doesn't allow this type of derivate work. Zed was totally in the right here, and Martin was totally in the wrong. That being said, that doesn't automagically grant Zed the right to be a douche and insult the guy, specially since not only he complied with Zed's request, but tries to explain that he did so in good faith. There's no 'tone' here, it was obviously an insulting and condescending attack towards Martin. A simple "Hey what you're doing is not permitted by my license, take it down" or "You're infringing my copyright, take this down" would have been more than enough. The reality is that Zed loves to pick a fight and demean people, and in this case Martin made a mistake in good faith and did not deserve such disdain.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  When you act in a classless way, whether that's making fart noises in a restaurant or plagiarizing someone's work, you risk the pain of being told to act with more class.
  - aplusbi 16y ago
    This wasn't plagiarism. At no point did Martin attempt to pass this off as his own work. This was an homage, very much in the spirit of open source - the only problem was that the book is not open source.
    - Semiapies 16y ago
      In that detail, it may not be the classical form of plagiarism and just piracy. However, if we are sticklers for the point of attribution, we have to acknowledge that "homage" doesn't involve ignoring licenses or copy-and-pasting the original content, now don't we?
      - 16y ago
darklajid 16y ago
For me the most interesting part was reading this, pondering about text as medium that lacks a lot of - erm - subtext _and_ I guess it's especially interesting if english is not your native language. That by itself usually leads to "wait a minute, what is the author trying to say here" moments more often. What I mean: Write german and I tend to interpret a lot more - I assume that I _know_ the language really well and therefor just _know_ what you're trying to say here. Maybe it's an advantage to read most of my internet stuff in english: Less "Someone's wrong on the internet" moments and more "Did I get this right" reflection. On-Topic: I respect Zed's work, tried the book recently and liked that quite a lot either. I do wonder if the tone was necessary though: Except for the "WTF? I didn't _meant_ to violate copyright" I couldn't read anything insulting in the author's comments, while "lacking class" and "I left ruby because of people like you" is - personal. Yes, it was wrong. Others commented that he could even hired a lawyer (seriously? For a no-profit, partly done, public github project? Overkill?), but I really think this could've been solved in private, easily, without much hassle. For me, for the most part, the original author sounds/reads like a real, authentic (ex-?) fan of Zed..
- tommorris 16y ago
  I call bullshit. Text can be perfectly expressive, in fact often more expressive than other media. You just need to be able to write well - and e-mail has exposed us on a daily basis to the fact that most people haven't figured out how to write and communicate very well. Obligatory plug - I wrote about this recently: http://blog.tommorris.org/post/1307196373/im-getting-absolutely-bored-of-this-tired-and http://blog.tommorris.org/post/1307196373/im-getting-absolut...
  - darklajid 16y ago
    Nice way to promote your own blog. Quote: "Do the people who propose these theories not get letters in the post? Do they not send each other Christmas cards?: See - that's the part that shows that you fail to understand the problem. At all. I can send my mum, my SO or my brother short notices - and they will get what I mean. Because they already know me. They know my style of talking, my sense of humor and my way to argue. I'm not going to send you a christmas card over the internet, without previous encounters. See - if you present this text of yours here, I'm lost. Are you _serious_ about that "bullshit"? I'm not sure. I don't know you and it doesn't make much sense to me. Either you are serious and we have to disagree a lot and I just don't (so far) get what your problem with my position is, or you just make a joke. Maybe you are chuckling in your chair and just want to spread some HN link love. Maybe you actually DO believe that emotions and intents are clearly visible in text. If the last point is true I wonder if you had any classes/lessons where you were told to determine the authors intention - and if you have enough confidence to claim that yes, you knew _exactly_ what Mark Twain was trying to tell you in each of his books. Er - I guess that was a long way to say: I call bullshit on both your argumentation and your motives. Feel free to read this with the image of me being amused, bewildered, confused, angry, annoyed or just neutral. Have fun.
deleted 16y ago
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martinemde 16y ago
Please see the README on the front page of the project with my update. https://github.com/martinemde/learn-ruby-the-hard-way https://github.com/martinemde/learn-ruby-the-hard-way I've calmed a bit since the original postings. I can see why he was upset and I know that the right thing to do was to remove the book. I had good intentions and I did this out of homage, not to steal or claim any credit. I've always been a fan of Zed's work. I will continue to be despite getting defensive about this.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  This update would be better without the remaining defensiveness, but it is a much less wrong response. I'm bewildered, though, at your saying that you're surprised at all the attention this has received when you've tried to publicize this incident.
  - martinemde 16y ago
    I found the whole incident rather funny. Zed published a post about the issue, I published the issue since Zed didn't link it. I've never submitted to Hacker News and figured it'd get buried. I didn't expect top story on hacker news.
- lzw 16y ago
  You still don't seem to get it. You may have calmed down but you don't sound like you think you've done anything wrong. It sure sounds like your employer demanded that you stop embarassing them, more than anything else. What I think you really need to learn- and this will only come from self examination, not being told by people like me-- is why what you did was wrong. You think that because your intentions were, in your perception "noble" that the ends justifies the means. But consider this- you were attempting to profit-- yes, profit-- from someone else's work. (Profit comes in terms of attention and reputation and awareness and popularity, not just financial renumeration.) Even though you were giving him credit, you were attempting to profit from his work without his permission. That's why this is wrong. Sure, others release their work and give blanket permission for people to profit from it. You may like that better because you get more for free from it. But that doesn't change what you tried to do to Zed. Zed was write to admonish you, and your defensiveness is understandable. But you're not going to profit from this unless you learn the lesson this event is trying to teach you.
sblom 16y ago
Wow. I really want to be on Zed's side here, but while his message is 99% legit, his delivery leaves something to be desired.
- xentronium 16y ago
  Original author (martinemde) had good intentions but was stopped by a fact he was dealing with a douchebag. Lesson #1: don't deal with douchebags. Zed thinks he's making something of extraordinary quality that's going to suck when crowdsourced. I am 100% sure he's wrong because wikipedia is crowdsourced and wikipedia is awesome.
  - natep 16y ago
    Did you notice that the book has an issue tracker? How many other books have one of those? Also, Wikipedia may be awesome, but what percentage of Wikipedia clones are awesome?
sequoia 16y ago
I think Zed's approach reflects an attitude like 'I shouldn't have to hold your hand re:copyright.' I'm guessing Zed's rancor isn't just about this incident, but the 'net-wide confusion about copyright vs cc copyright vs gpl vs whatever, particularly among the newer generation of web developers (like me). I am sympathetic to his feeling of "I shouldn't even have to tell you this."
- Semiapies 16y ago
  Agreed, and I think it's a justified rancor. There are some things you're expected to know as a literate person in this day and time, and some guy can't just expect his ignoring them to be covered with a shrug and a "my bad" when he's called on it.
BCGC 16y ago
Wow. There are people who will steal* and then have the guts to argue they are right. I did not read LPTHW before this. Now I read it and it's indeed hard work. Wow.
meemo 16y ago
There's faults on both sides. The guy is clearly in the wrong by failing to follow the copyright restrictions, but it was probably an honest mistake. Since he's spending to much time on the book, he's probably a fan of Zed's work. And he may be thinking he's adding value to the book. On the other side, Zed was completely within his rights to ask the guy to take repository down, but didn't need to make any assumptions about the guy's intentions or "class".
natep 16y ago
Nobody's going to notice this comment now, but Martin Edme has posted a formal apology. Zed, it seems, will not apologize, based on recent twitter updates: Hilarious hypocrisy how I'm called a "dick", "asshole", "d-bag", and "cock" because I said someone should have some "class". 33 minutes ago via web [1] [1] http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/774156132024320 http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/774156132024320

170 points by bobbywilson0 16y ago

ohyes 16y ago

This is clearly not plagiarism. At no point did the translator take credit for the original work. There is a definition for plagiarism; it involves taking credit for someone else's original work. Zed would probably have done better by simply quoting the license and asking him to take it down (because of copywrite infringement) instead of incorrectly accusing him of plagiarism (which implies he was doing the translation in bad faith).

ohyes 16y ago
Factual correctness warrants down vote? Seriously? "the wrongful appropriation, close imitation, or purloining and publication, of another author's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions, and the representation of them as one's own original work." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism). This was not plagiarism.

frou_dh 16y ago

It must suck to have your everyday online activities tracked, and your character traits debated at length by strangers. Look at the title of this HN post, pure celebrity drama-bait.

mathgladiator 16y ago

At some level, you have to love zed. He gives and gives to the world, and the world just craps on him. Of course, I have a feeling that his personal brand isn't going to be helped by this exchange.

protomyth 16y ago
Well, considering he is doing blank templates and did a "how to" blog post, I think he is being more reasonable than anyone should expect. What they did was rude. [edit s/black/blank/]
mtsmith85 16y ago
I would disagree about his personal brand, actually. I think that this is an example of Zed -- part and parcel. (And let me say right from the start, I love this guy's work and all that he brings to the table.) Zed has given immense amounts of code and work to the web community as a whole. It would be characteristically unlike Zed to not defend his work from what he views (and many others, I assume, including myself) as a savaging of his work. So if you view it from that perspective? This is just par for the course with Zed. I, for one, appreciate someone who is so passionate about their work that they go to such lengths to defend it. (Edited: Forgot me some commas.)
- kenjackson 16y ago
  * I, for one, appreciate someone who is so passionate about their work that they go to such lengths to defend it.* The ironic thing is that Zed's letter is similar to Bill Gates's letter to hobbyists 30 years, yet Bill has been historically flamed by the hacker community (requiring me to pay for software, is a larger crime than me stealing it). I wonder if identity politics play a larger role than ethical admiration.
  - ebneter 16y ago
    Except that Zed has made lots of open source contributions -- just not this one. He does get to pick and choose how he wishes to release things.
    - kenjackson 16y ago
      I don't think anyone is arguing against what you're saying. It's the manner in which you do it. When I'm in the grcoery store and someone leaves their cart in the way I usually say, "You're blocking the path, could you move it?" Never had an issue. I could also say, "Jerkwad, would you move your cart, or continue to be a classless lowlife and I'll have someone from the store move it for you?" I just find people to make such pronouncements to be over the top and people I generally would not associate with. And unfortunately there are people like that. It just felt like Zed trended that direction, IMO. And clearly it appears that many in HN think its perfectly acceptable.
Loic 16y ago
Zed has principles and follow them. His personal brand (I don't like the term, but I am not a native English speaker and have difficulties to come up with better) is not going to suffer, the opposite. He is just requesting respect for his work and the basic copy rights to be followed. I like people with principles.
- crux_ 16y ago
  I don't like the term either. Reputation is a nice substitute, although it lacks the connotations of treating a person as though they were a corporation-style entity with a marketing department. ... which, come to think of it, is one of the reasons I hate the phrase "personal brand."
nkurz 16y ago
I've been disappointed with the tone of some of Zed's comments here on HN, but this one struck me as perfectly polite and reasonable. His brand quality just got a big boost for me. I appreciate principles. Not everyone has to like every brand, and appealing to the least common denominator isn't always the best strategy.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
famousactress 16y ago
Really? I read it differently. I thought both Zed and Martin came off as passionate, and relatively well-reasoned. Nothing Zed said here seemed over the top or out of line considering the context. Hopefully people who read over the exchange imagine themselves waking up to the same scenario.
cowboyhero 16y ago
Speaking of brands .. if I were the guys running Engine Yard I'd be reaaaaally pissed right about now.

Jabbles 16y ago

Drama! Seriously though, everyone should be aware that "free as in beer" and "free as in speech" are not the same thing. And they should be aware of which case applies.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

charlief 16y ago

This was originally posted by martinemde looking for support and then flagged down here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1873881 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1873881

khingebjerg 16y ago
Perhaps because of the provocative title. I actually think that it shows even less class from martinemde, that he posted that himself.
rbanffy 16y ago
"I messaged you on Twitter and contacted you by email to try to give you knowledge of it. I was quite public about doing it as a _why day project. I made a good faith effort to let you know what I was working on. I even knew you were working on having a learn code the hard way thing and I wanted to contribute but there's no clear outline of your goals or how you expect people to contribute. This is my understanding of what you'd expect for contribution." I tend to support the martinemde here. It seems he tried contact and was ignored. As much as Zed's coding skills are respected (I never looked into his code myself, but I trust my peers) I have to wonder if they are worth his toxicity. "have some class", "guys like you are the reason I stopped doing Ruby", "Ruby hippie"... Come on...
- tvon 16y ago
  > It seems he tried contact and was ignored. I don't think silence is consent in this case. The whole thing seems like an obviously bad idea to me...
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    I suppose most programmers find it better to ask for forgiveness then for permission.
    - Semiapies 16y ago
      Whether or not that's true, programmers who go for that approach need to be good at apologizing.

mcknz 16y ago

But honestly Zed, the web is considered "public domain" and you should be happy I just didn't "lift" your whole book and put my name on it!

swannodette 16y ago
I hope sarcasm is intended here, if so- that's funny.
- mcav 16y ago
  http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1868736 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1868736
- nkurz 16y ago
  Certainly it is intended to be sarcasm, but it's a meme that we should try to resist. Rather than regurgitating a reference to show cool insider status, we should look at the situation and reflect on how it is the same and how it is different. Flag it and move on.
- mcknz 16y ago
  Thought it interesting how absurd the "Monica" situation seems, yet we often engage in essentially the same behavior ourselves. That just doesn't sound as good on a bumper sticker. EDIT: clarification
  - ay 16y ago
    Monica was the original author - did you mean to write the name of that lady who is (was?) with the Cooks Source ?
16s 16y ago
You'd be amazed at how many dumb asses actually believe that. No idea what the word copyright means.

jasonkester 16y ago

This is a good illustration of how tone doesn't come across well in writing. Reading the comment by the original author, it sounded like a friendly request to please take the content down. The guy whose site it was clearly didn't see it that way and responded as though he'd been viscously attacked. He ends up coming across as quite angry, when more likely he was just rattled and feeling defensive. I guess the takeaway is to always take a step back before responding when you feel attacked. Chances are you're not being attacked nearly as harshly as you think.

mcknz 16y ago
"have some class" was probably a little over the top, but I can understand the frustration.
- pmjordan 16y ago
  I don't know, would you call copyright infringement a "classy" thing to do?
  - mcknz 16y ago
    not at all -- just thought that was the only part that martinemde could possibly object to.
    - pmjordan 16y ago
      My money's on being caught red-handed at copyright infringement. Plus an unhealthy level of entitlement (I'm a fucking Engine Yard programmer for fuck sake.)
      - aplusbi 16y ago
        The Engine Yard comment was meant to be taken as "I use your stuff (mongrel) and respect you. I had no intention of wronging you." As for "being caught red-handed" it's a matter of intent. Martin didn't mean to wrong Zed, he was inspired by Zed but ultimately messed up (by assuming it was okay to modify the text).

rubyrescue 16y ago

"I'm a fucking Engine Yard programmer for fuck sake." - what an arrogant statement.

scott_s 16y ago
I read it not as "I'm an amazing programmer because I work for Engine Yard," but "I work for a company that clearly depends on your work - I respect what you've done."
- dsteinweg 16y ago
  After hearing your interpretation, I realize that probably does make more sense within the context of the paragraph. But I certainly heard it the other way first. That's probably another good example of meaning being lost in text compared to spoken word.
- pjscott 16y ago
  On behalf of everyone who tries to communicate over the internet, I'd like to thank you for assuming the nicer interpretation. It's easy to misinterpret someone's tone, and written communication goes so much more smoothly when people avoid making angry assumptions.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    I'm not sure "Hey, I write stuff using your software, you should tolerate my mistreatment of you better!" is a nicer interpretation.
    - aplusbi 16y ago
      No, but the "Hey I write stuff using your software, I never meant to mistreat you." is.
  - bmm6o 16y ago
    It's not just about choosing to read the more charitable interpretation. The second reading requires more context than the first one. If you aren't aware of the additional facts you mention, it's very difficult to read the comment in a positive way.

rflrob 16y ago

Regardless of whether Zed's tone in the first post was too harsh or not, I think everything from "Guys like you are the reason I stopped doing Ruby" onwards was just fanning the flames unnecessarily.

JanezStupar 16y ago

This is Zeeed Shaaaaw!!! I have never met the guy, but I surely hope that I get the privilege some day, even if he just picks on me and tells me that my work is worthless piece of junk and that if it implodes in a second it would be a service to the world - because that might be single most insightful and sincere analysis one might receive. Kudos to anyone with a pair, that is capable of speaking their mind in today's "politically correct" world ridden with hypocrisy.

forsaken 16y ago
Zed is actually really nice in person.
- masklinn 16y ago
  He doesn't come across badly here. Stern, but fair if a bit harsh. And the other guy comes across as a working device of non-standard proportions.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  Seeing many of the responses make me wonder whether he's even really as ogrish online as some people suggest. Most of what I've seen pointed out by angry folks seem to be responses to things those people aren't citing. Seeing the full exchange in this case, I'm hard put to see anything unusual with what Shaw said. Nice people and polite people get justifiably angry, too.
citricsquid 16y ago
Like it or not Zed is entirely right here. It's his work, the guy had no permission, it has nothing to do with being "politically correct" it has everything to do with no being a dick and respecting a persons ownership and the effort they put into something. Whether or not Zed is the biggest dick in the world is irrelevant.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  Absolutely. It's one thing to take issue with the tone of someone voicing an opinion or reacting to your opinion, but it's another to whine that someone's not being friendly when he's telling you to stop stealing his work.

brettbender 16y ago

Love the entitlement evident in his reply, "I'm a fucking Engine Yard programmer for fuck sake. We promote mongrel as a stable deployment stack" - does he think the fact that they promote zed's work means it's okay to ignore zed's rights regarding his own work? Also, how could anyone take issue with the maintainer of https://github.com/martinemde/dicks https://github.com/martinemde/dicks and http://dicks.heroku.com http://dicks.heroku.com ?

parfe 16y ago
I don't think irony is the right word, but I got a good chuckle out of this martimeemde guy. He is quite literally the embodiment of why zed left ruby. Someone profiting from Zed's work on mongrel yet at the same time giving Zed shit. Zed wrote a Python book and explicitly said it shouldn't be ported to Ruby. Then this ruby guy comes along and misappropriates the book and then whines that Zed isn't giving him enough for free.
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  > Zed wrote a Python book and explicitly said it shouldn't be ported to Ruby. Just to make it clear, Zed said that his book shouldn't be 'ported' to _anything_. An inspired work based on Ruby already exists, by @krainboltgreene, and Zed is aware and supportive.
aplusbi 16y ago
I'm pretty sure Martin meant that respects and appreciates Zed's work as he uses mongrel, and that he was not in any way trying to be disrespectful to Zed in copying the book.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

16s 16y ago

Zed should have sent a DMCA notice to github.

16s 16y ago
http://help.github.com/dmca/ http://help.github.com/dmca/ For some reason can't edit my original comment. So replied to myself.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  After a certain period of time, you can't edit a comment you've made. Not sure of the exact period.

xentronium 16y ago

I'm probably gonna get downvoted, but now I'm quite sure that web really IS public domain. We just have to state it explicitly. From now on gonna use public domain license on any public work I produce. Who's with me?

nickpinkston 16y ago
Well, there's copyright's all over the web, and anything without it is common law'ed into being copyrighted - so no. Personally, I go by the mantra of "if you post it, anyone can use it how they like". Sure, Zed is within his legal rights to ask for this, but I'm surprised no one is viewing this from the angle of the Ruby community losing a (possibly) valuable resource because "Zed's brand" has to be maintained... Seems like everyone is so sensitive about the sanctity of their ideas.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  As linked elsewhere: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1739890 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1739890 Copy & paste probably won't make a useful Ruby book. "Seems like everyone is so sensitive about the sanctity of their ideas." That's the pain of dealing with other human beings as if they are human beings and not just web sites or github repositories.
  - nickpinkston 16y ago
    My argument isn't that this Ruby version is so compelling it deserves to exist. I think restricting creativity "because I made it" is a stupid reason. Maybe others would have (are?) making useful "X The Hard Way" books stop because of this. I don't see what the benefit of him restricting it is.

joshuacc 16y ago

Interestingly, Martin has now updated the readme https://github.com/martinemde/learn-ruby-the-hard-way#readme https://github.com/martinemde/learn-ruby-the-hard-way#readme He concedes both of Zed's main points: 1. That he didn't have a legal right to "translate" the book 2. That "translating" the book from Python to Ruby didn't work all that well anyway The rest of the message boils down to a complaint that Zed wasn't nice enough in his takedown request. While Zed could have phrased things more nicely, he wasn't especially rude given the context of clear plagiarism and copyright violation.

16s 16y ago
Not nice? He could have sent a settlement offer... pay me X dollars for damaging my reputation as an author and I will promise not to sue you. Some may argue that Zed was not "damaged" by this juvenile act, but a good lawyer would have no problem proving damage if push came to shove.
- aplusbi 16y ago
  And he could have politely asked Martin to take it down. Zed was being "not nice" no matter how you look at it. He could have been worse, but that's like saying you shouldn't be mad because I punched you in the stomach instead of the face. Edit: okay, the analogy is a strawman but seriously, just because someone could have been worse doesn't excuse their behavior. Telling someone they have no class is rude, especially when it's pretty clear that Martin wasn't trying to plagiarize Zed's book - he was just confused about its licensing.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    The bit that gets me about the defenses of Emde: He "punched" Shaw. Admittedly, this is a point that people defending the guy (and from the current state of the project's readme, himself) only acknowledge in the most grudging way, but it's there - Edme wronged the guy. But I'm to take it that Shaw is wrong because he's not friendly in his response to that? It's trite to make remarks about Asperger, social dysfunction among geeks, etc., but there is something remarkable about the Yeah, I did something blatantly wrong, but he was mean to me when he told me to stop doing it, and that's what's important! attitude put forth and defended. In most parts of modern society, the honest response would be along the lines of, "Dude, you're being a dick."

lhnz 16y ago

If the guy credited him and Zed's book was free online, then I really think Zed is doing the coding world a disservice here...

lhnz 16y ago
I'm getting downvoted, so I'll expand: If you make ethical judgments directly from the license then Zed Shaw is right. But Martin hadn't really done much wrong. The book was free online, and it would be classed as fair use by many people if it had been made using music, film or tv. He also made sure to credit Zed for the text, and only an idiot would think that Zed was able to change his text to fit the code better so I don't think it would reflect back on Zed badly at all... Then again, in my opinion, what is important is that there are more beginning code examples to read in Ruby. Bullshit over rights or hatred of whole programming communities be damned.

jpcx01 16y ago

Someone, please tell me where there is a copyright notice anywhere on http://learnpythonthehardway.org/ http://learnpythonthehardway.org/ or on the PDF http://learnpythonthehardway.org/static/LearnPythonTheHardWay.pdf http://learnpythonthehardway.org/static/LearnPythonTheHardWa... If he's so fanatical about copyright, why can't he post something about it? The culture developers are used to on github is forking people's work and tweaking it (while still giving attribution to the author). It's not totally shocking that someone would accidentally apply this philosophy to this book. Telling someone he has "no class" for doing this is just being a dick. But then again, its Zed D Shaw. He earned that middle name.

FraaJad 16y ago
Before you attack someone's name you should do your homework. 1. he has his name on the book. That is sufficient to claim copyright. There is no need for additional copyright notices. 2. The source to the book was not on github. The martinemde guy put up the code on github. The original source lives in a fossil repository.
johnny22 16y ago
copyright is implicit in many places isn't it?
- dctoedt 16y ago
  In the U.S., and AFAIK in much of the rest of the world, copyright arises automatically, without the need for either registration or a copyright notice, once the "original work of authorship" is "fixed" in a "tangible medium of expression" (which can include saving to disk). See generally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Obtaining_copyright http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Obtaining_copyright
  - nroach 16y ago
    While the copyright itself can arise without registration, the ability to file suit in federal court for infringement of the copyright arises only once registered. Registration can take place after the date of infringement. For more see http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#register http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#register

voodootikigod 16y ago

The worst part of this situation is how martinemde is portending himself to be a "translator" like from English to Spanish, ignorant of the fact that you even need permission to do that. http://twitter.com/martinemde http://twitter.com/martinemde Also its pretty crappy how the Ruby Protection Squad came to his rescue with blind hate for Zed throwing comments like "Wow didn't even know who Zed Shaw was, now the first thing I learned about him is that he's a total d-bag" - http://twitter.com/PeteTheSadPanda/status/598669095084033 http://twitter.com/PeteTheSadPanda/status/598669095084033 Yes Zed doesn't always say things gently, but what he did say was 100% truth. Regardless of if you like what he says you have to respect 1. the truth and 2. who was really in the wrong here. Final note: this guy could have buried it by just deleting the whole repo, but left it up to seem like the "martyr" - that is what kills me the most.

brown9-2 16y ago
I think your first point here is excellent, but do we really need to care about what some random (as far as I can tell) Twitter user thinks about Zed? On the Internet you can find a negative comment about anyone by someone, somewhere.

andjones 16y ago

Although I understand the author's desire to not have his work copied, I think he stepped across the line when he used a personal attack: "Guys like you are the reason I stopped doing Ruby."

ddemchuk 16y ago

Why do people take the time to digitally bicker with veteran trolls? We're all professionals, this isn't something you want your name attached to on the "nothing is ever forgotten" internet.

mdonahoe 16y ago

Interesting. On the page about the book[1], Zed also links to How To Think Like a Computer Scientist, another popular book for learning Python. Allen Downey was the first author on that book, but initially he wrote it in Java: "I released the book under the GNU Free Documentation License, which allows users to copy, modify, and distribute the book. What happened next is the cool part. Jeff Elkner, a high school teacher in Virginia, adopted my book and translated it into Python. He sent me a copy of his translation, and I had the unusual experience of learning Python by reading my own book."[2] It's funny that the same thing is happening here, but Zed has a very different reaction than Allen's. [1]: http://learnpythonthehardway.org/index http://learnpythonthehardway.org/index [2]: http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/html/book001.html http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/html/book001.html

JshWright 16y ago
It would only be "the same thing" if Zed chose to release his content under the GNU Free Documentation License, which he did not. It's his content, and he can do with it what he choses. If he doesn't want folks to "copy, modify, and distribute" his content, that's fine with me (not that it matters, since it's _his_ content).
- jpcx01 16y ago
  Really? You see no similarities between these 2 cases? I only see one big difference. One author cares about only himself and his own little world
  - JshWright 16y ago
    I'm not even sure this is worth replying to, but what the heck... Zed has absolutely no moral obligation to write stuff for free and release it for anyone to do whatever they want with. Do you express the same moral outrage over every book in the library with a copyright notice printed on it? I surely hope that every piece of code and content that you ever create is released under a license that allows anyone to do what they please with it, otherwise... you don't have a moral leg to stand on.

steveklabnik 16y ago

The "good riddance" posts really sadden me. I've generally found the Ruby community to be a great place, and then comments like these come along...

grandalf 16y ago

Disclaimer: I'm commenting on this thread only to help Zed generate more publicity/buzz for his book, which was surely the reason why he was a dick to Martin about it :) People understand clearly when someone like "The Situation" acts like a dick to gain notoriety, but many programmers seem not to be able to understand when a programmer does it. This is very effective schtick, and Zed has inspired a few others of late. Bottom line: Zed is a nice guy and Martin is a nice guy.

sp4rki 16y ago

Why are a lot of people missing stuff like this: "have some class and use your own words and write your own book" and this "Guys like you are the reason I stopped doing Ruby"? I agree with Zed that the idea was borderline useless since both languages have their ways and a direct translation lacks focus anyway. I also agree that it's Zed's work, and he granted use of his work with a license which doesn't allow this type of derivate work. Zed was totally in the right here, and Martin was totally in the wrong. That being said, that doesn't automagically grant Zed the right to be a douche and insult the guy, specially since not only he complied with Zed's request, but tries to explain that he did so in good faith. There's no 'tone' here, it was obviously an insulting and condescending attack towards Martin. A simple "Hey what you're doing is not permitted by my license, take it down" or "You're infringing my copyright, take this down" would have been more than enough. The reality is that Zed loves to pick a fight and demean people, and in this case Martin made a mistake in good faith and did not deserve such disdain.

Semiapies 16y ago
When you act in a classless way, whether that's making fart noises in a restaurant or plagiarizing someone's work, you risk the pain of being told to act with more class.
- aplusbi 16y ago
  This wasn't plagiarism. At no point did Martin attempt to pass this off as his own work. This was an homage, very much in the spirit of open source - the only problem was that the book is not open source.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    In that detail, it may not be the classical form of plagiarism and just piracy. However, if we are sticklers for the point of attribution, we have to acknowledge that "homage" doesn't involve ignoring licenses or copy-and-pasting the original content, now don't we?
    - 16y ago

darklajid 16y ago

For me the most interesting part was reading this, pondering about text as medium that lacks a lot of - erm - subtext _and_ I guess it's especially interesting if english is not your native language. That by itself usually leads to "wait a minute, what is the author trying to say here" moments more often. What I mean: Write german and I tend to interpret a lot more - I assume that I _know_ the language really well and therefor just _know_ what you're trying to say here. Maybe it's an advantage to read most of my internet stuff in english: Less "Someone's wrong on the internet" moments and more "Did I get this right" reflection. On-Topic: I respect Zed's work, tried the book recently and liked that quite a lot either. I do wonder if the tone was necessary though: Except for the "WTF? I didn't _meant_ to violate copyright" I couldn't read anything insulting in the author's comments, while "lacking class" and "I left ruby because of people like you" is - personal. Yes, it was wrong. Others commented that he could even hired a lawyer (seriously? For a no-profit, partly done, public github project? Overkill?), but I really think this could've been solved in private, easily, without much hassle. For me, for the most part, the original author sounds/reads like a real, authentic (ex-?) fan of Zed..

tommorris 16y ago
I call bullshit. Text can be perfectly expressive, in fact often more expressive than other media. You just need to be able to write well - and e-mail has exposed us on a daily basis to the fact that most people haven't figured out how to write and communicate very well. Obligatory plug - I wrote about this recently: http://blog.tommorris.org/post/1307196373/im-getting-absolutely-bored-of-this-tired-and http://blog.tommorris.org/post/1307196373/im-getting-absolut...
- darklajid 16y ago
  Nice way to promote your own blog. Quote: "Do the people who propose these theories not get letters in the post? Do they not send each other Christmas cards?: See - that's the part that shows that you fail to understand the problem. At all. I can send my mum, my SO or my brother short notices - and they will get what I mean. Because they already know me. They know my style of talking, my sense of humor and my way to argue. I'm not going to send you a christmas card over the internet, without previous encounters. See - if you present this text of yours here, I'm lost. Are you _serious_ about that "bullshit"? I'm not sure. I don't know you and it doesn't make much sense to me. Either you are serious and we have to disagree a lot and I just don't (so far) get what your problem with my position is, or you just make a joke. Maybe you are chuckling in your chair and just want to spread some HN link love. Maybe you actually DO believe that emotions and intents are clearly visible in text. If the last point is true I wonder if you had any classes/lessons where you were told to determine the authors intention - and if you have enough confidence to claim that yes, you knew _exactly_ what Mark Twain was trying to tell you in each of his books. Er - I guess that was a long way to say: I call bullshit on both your argumentation and your motives. Feel free to read this with the image of me being amused, bewildered, confused, angry, annoyed or just neutral. Have fun.

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martinemde 16y ago

Please see the README on the front page of the project with my update. https://github.com/martinemde/learn-ruby-the-hard-way https://github.com/martinemde/learn-ruby-the-hard-way I've calmed a bit since the original postings. I can see why he was upset and I know that the right thing to do was to remove the book. I had good intentions and I did this out of homage, not to steal or claim any credit. I've always been a fan of Zed's work. I will continue to be despite getting defensive about this.

Semiapies 16y ago
This update would be better without the remaining defensiveness, but it is a much less wrong response. I'm bewildered, though, at your saying that you're surprised at all the attention this has received when you've tried to publicize this incident.
- martinemde 16y ago
  I found the whole incident rather funny. Zed published a post about the issue, I published the issue since Zed didn't link it. I've never submitted to Hacker News and figured it'd get buried. I didn't expect top story on hacker news.
lzw 16y ago
You still don't seem to get it. You may have calmed down but you don't sound like you think you've done anything wrong. It sure sounds like your employer demanded that you stop embarassing them, more than anything else. What I think you really need to learn- and this will only come from self examination, not being told by people like me-- is why what you did was wrong. You think that because your intentions were, in your perception "noble" that the ends justifies the means. But consider this- you were attempting to profit-- yes, profit-- from someone else's work. (Profit comes in terms of attention and reputation and awareness and popularity, not just financial renumeration.) Even though you were giving him credit, you were attempting to profit from his work without his permission. That's why this is wrong. Sure, others release their work and give blanket permission for people to profit from it. You may like that better because you get more for free from it. But that doesn't change what you tried to do to Zed. Zed was write to admonish you, and your defensiveness is understandable. But you're not going to profit from this unless you learn the lesson this event is trying to teach you.

sblom 16y ago

Wow. I really want to be on Zed's side here, but while his message is 99% legit, his delivery leaves something to be desired.

xentronium 16y ago
Original author (martinemde) had good intentions but was stopped by a fact he was dealing with a douchebag. Lesson #1: don't deal with douchebags. Zed thinks he's making something of extraordinary quality that's going to suck when crowdsourced. I am 100% sure he's wrong because wikipedia is crowdsourced and wikipedia is awesome.
- natep 16y ago
  Did you notice that the book has an issue tracker? How many other books have one of those? Also, Wikipedia may be awesome, but what percentage of Wikipedia clones are awesome?

sequoia 16y ago

I think Zed's approach reflects an attitude like 'I shouldn't have to hold your hand re:copyright.' I'm guessing Zed's rancor isn't just about this incident, but the 'net-wide confusion about copyright vs cc copyright vs gpl vs whatever, particularly among the newer generation of web developers (like me). I am sympathetic to his feeling of "I shouldn't even have to tell you this."

Semiapies 16y ago
Agreed, and I think it's a justified rancor. There are some things you're expected to know as a literate person in this day and time, and some guy can't just expect his ignoring them to be covered with a shrug and a "my bad" when he's called on it.

BCGC 16y ago

Wow. There are people who will steal* and then have the guts to argue they are right. I did not read LPTHW before this. Now I read it and it's indeed hard work. Wow.

meemo 16y ago

There's faults on both sides. The guy is clearly in the wrong by failing to follow the copyright restrictions, but it was probably an honest mistake. Since he's spending to much time on the book, he's probably a fan of Zed's work. And he may be thinking he's adding value to the book. On the other side, Zed was completely within his rights to ask the guy to take repository down, but didn't need to make any assumptions about the guy's intentions or "class".

natep 16y ago

Nobody's going to notice this comment now, but Martin Edme has posted a formal apology. Zed, it seems, will not apologize, based on recent twitter updates: Hilarious hypocrisy how I'm called a "dick", "asshole", "d-bag", and "cock" because I said someone should have some "class". 33 minutes ago via web [1] [1] http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/774156132024320 http://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/774156132024320