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Yes, I disagree that education isn't good for learning though. Sure there could be perverse incentives here and there that make the education system look bad,

Yes, I disagree that education isn't good for learning though. Sure there could be perverse incentives here and there that make the education system look bad, and it's definitely not perfect, and sure there's some unspoken learnings that teach people how to behave in society , but I'd argue that being at school is one of the most effective ways to make humans learn. How would you learn everything learned from age ~5 to 18 without teachers and peers?

astazangasta 8y ago
School is not one of the most effective ways to make humans learn. It is one of the LEAST effective ways. I will give you an example. I know a decent amount of linear algebra now. I took a linear algebra course in college; I retained almost none of it. I remember learning something about SVDs and eigenvectors; I don't remember how to do an SVD. So how did I learn any linear algebra? I had to learn it in graduate school, where I was trying to model evolution as a Markov process. I looked up some stuff in Numerical Recipes, wrote some C classes implementing matrix exponentiation and other such things. That stuck. School is useless.
- fhrow4484 8y ago
  What you're describing is that you remembered something much better if you have a use for it. It doesn't mean school isn't effective. How can you tell that undergrad knowledge didn't help you when you "looked up stuff in numerical recipes". In other words: would your younger self in high school be able to understand the stuff in Numerical Recipes, and able to write some C(++?) classes. I know I wouldn't, and that undergrad education taught me some strong basics that would let me do it now. The end of class stuff where you take a toy example of how to use your learned basics such as calculating the SVD is just an attempt at giving some "real world" example which exercises the basics, and an attempt at grading you on this, and that can of little usefulness long term yeah, but the core concepts are useful if you pursue your education/career in a scientific path that requires those.
  - astazangasta 8y ago
    >In other words: would your younger self in high school be able to understand the stuff in Numerical Recipes, and able to write some C(++?) classes. Yes, because my younger self used to read math books on the side for fun. This is also how I learned C. While it is true that you may absorb some basic stuff from schooling, it is VERY thin. I was by all accounts an exemplary student, and I still retained a small fraction of what I learned. Meanwhile all of the real-world stuff I learned is still mostly there. We would do much better to figure out how to integrate young people into real life earlier, like we used to - apprentice => journeyman => master. But we can't tolerate that, because adults need to be "maximizing productivity" or some garbage, and don't have time to train kids.
dorpy 8y ago
Everything I learnt from age 5 to 18? Very close to nothing — and I was a good student who graduated to one of the best universities in the country. I could read before I arrived at school, and I only started to educate myself when I left. I could learn more in six months than I learnt in ten years in school — no exaggeration. Generally it is only the intensely schooled, who have done all their learning within its confines, who make completely absurd claims about the efficacy of institutional education. People who can do many things very well usually understand how destructive schooling is of genuine growth. Again, kids do learn in school, but it is despite being there, not because of it.

astazangasta 8y ago

School is not one of the most effective ways to make humans learn. It is one of the LEAST effective ways. I will give you an example. I know a decent amount of linear algebra now. I took a linear algebra course in college; I retained almost none of it. I remember learning something about SVDs and eigenvectors; I don't remember how to do an SVD. So how did I learn any linear algebra? I had to learn it in graduate school, where I was trying to model evolution as a Markov process. I looked up some stuff in Numerical Recipes, wrote some C classes implementing matrix exponentiation and other such things. That stuck. School is useless.

fhrow4484 8y ago
What you're describing is that you remembered something much better if you have a use for it. It doesn't mean school isn't effective. How can you tell that undergrad knowledge didn't help you when you "looked up stuff in numerical recipes". In other words: would your younger self in high school be able to understand the stuff in Numerical Recipes, and able to write some C(++?) classes. I know I wouldn't, and that undergrad education taught me some strong basics that would let me do it now. The end of class stuff where you take a toy example of how to use your learned basics such as calculating the SVD is just an attempt at giving some "real world" example which exercises the basics, and an attempt at grading you on this, and that can of little usefulness long term yeah, but the core concepts are useful if you pursue your education/career in a scientific path that requires those.
- astazangasta 8y ago
  >In other words: would your younger self in high school be able to understand the stuff in Numerical Recipes, and able to write some C(++?) classes. Yes, because my younger self used to read math books on the side for fun. This is also how I learned C. While it is true that you may absorb some basic stuff from schooling, it is VERY thin. I was by all accounts an exemplary student, and I still retained a small fraction of what I learned. Meanwhile all of the real-world stuff I learned is still mostly there. We would do much better to figure out how to integrate young people into real life earlier, like we used to - apprentice => journeyman => master. But we can't tolerate that, because adults need to be "maximizing productivity" or some garbage, and don't have time to train kids.

dorpy 8y ago

Everything I learnt from age 5 to 18? Very close to nothing — and I was a good student who graduated to one of the best universities in the country. I could read before I arrived at school, and I only started to educate myself when I left. I could learn more in six months than I learnt in ten years in school — no exaggeration. Generally it is only the intensely schooled, who have done all their learning within its confines, who make completely absurd claims about the efficacy of institutional education. People who can do many things very well usually understand how destructive schooling is of genuine growth. Again, kids do learn in school, but it is despite being there, not because of it.