6 ms·

No corporation has ever shut out the hackers. In every machine ever built, if hackers want to control it they will. Especially if they're allowed to take the ma

by cryptoz 16y ago

No corporation has ever shut out the hackers. In every machine ever built, if hackers want to control it they will. Especially if they're allowed to take the machine home. What makes you think this case is any different? Microsoft can't keep Office or Windows under wraps, nor the XBOX, nor anything else. The hackers will win, as always.

chadgeidel 16y ago
As with much security "win" is relative. If Microsoft can keep the hackers at bay until their next console release (or, perhaps the subsequent release) they will have essentially "won".
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
tptacek 16y ago
Patently false. For one example: DirecTV shut out the off-the-shelf smartcard hackers. You're falling into a narrative trap. It's not actually "hackers vs. Microsoft". Microsoft pays some of the best in the world. Most examples of hackers beating companies involve companies that did not invest seriously in countermeasures. That's not a problem Microsoft has.
- daeken 16y ago
  Another good one: the 360. While there have been attacks against it, hackers have by no means won.
  - Psyonic 16y ago
    Yes they have, you just can't play on Live. The service hasn't been hacked, but the machine has. Same with the ps3.
- jonmc12 16y ago
  There is a difference between hacking a machine (Kinect) and hacking a service (DirecTV).
  - tptacek 16y ago
    I don't see the difference between hacking the machine that makes DirecTV work and the machine that makes Kinect work, but since we're a community of nerds, I'm sure there's at least 1223 distinctions to be drawn here.
    - pyre 16y ago
      DirectTV is a service. You hack the machine to receive the service for free. It can never be impossible for them to detect that and shut you down.
      - tptacek 16y ago
        I don't follow. People used to hack DirecTV machines to receive the service for free. DirecTV detected that, and shut all those people down. How much does it cost today to obtain a device that gets free pay-per-view?
        pyre 16y ago
        There are still people that do it, so far as I understand, but it is a dedicated bunch and takes enough time that it's not something that will easily be in the hands of people that don't have intimate knowledge of the systems.
        tptacek 16y ago
        It used to cost $150? to get unlimited free pay-per-view. I know; I had a hacked card (we paid for DTV, but I liked being able to record The Simpsons from every local network carried on DTV, back when The Simpsons was actually decent). What does it cost now?
    - 16y ago
- javanix 16y ago
  That's not quite the same situation as hardware hacking - DirectTV's countermeasures basically come down to detecting fraud and disabling the users, not preventing it completely. What just about all consumer electronics companies have failed to do is lock down their hardware from being hacked in the first place - after all, Sony and Apple also pay some of the best in the world, and the PS3 and iPhone have been cracked wide open with software. Microsoft is certainly better than most (the 360 doesn't yet have a software patch - there are hardware solutions - that can be used for piracy), but they are by no means immune to hackers.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    I believe you're wrong about the nature of DirectTV's countermeasures, although we may be in a semantic tar pit here. The measures DirectTV took to stop the emulators were very, very technical; they involve encryption at the level of HDL.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  > Microsoft pays some of the best in the world. Some of the best. And most of the best are "out there" and not on their payroll. Plus it's not impossible that some of these supposed best on their payroll may also contribute, on the side, to helping hack/crack their products, anonymously. Regardless though, I bet for every 1 world-class hacker inside Microsoft there are 100+ outside of it, and some of the latter will have the interest and time and skills to hack it.
teh 16y ago
As someone who as sunk considerable amounts of time into PS3 hacking I can say that sony do a pretty good job. Not initially, but their current firmware (3.5) is pretty closed.

by cryptoz 16y ago

chadgeidel 16y ago

As with much security "win" is relative. If Microsoft can keep the hackers at bay until their next console release (or, perhaps the subsequent release) they will have essentially "won".

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

tptacek 16y ago

Patently false. For one example: DirecTV shut out the off-the-shelf smartcard hackers. You're falling into a narrative trap. It's not actually "hackers vs. Microsoft". Microsoft pays some of the best in the world. Most examples of hackers beating companies involve companies that did not invest seriously in countermeasures. That's not a problem Microsoft has.

daeken 16y ago
Another good one: the 360. While there have been attacks against it, hackers have by no means won.
- Psyonic 16y ago
  Yes they have, you just can't play on Live. The service hasn't been hacked, but the machine has. Same with the ps3.
jonmc12 16y ago
There is a difference between hacking a machine (Kinect) and hacking a service (DirecTV).
- tptacek 16y ago
  I don't see the difference between hacking the machine that makes DirecTV work and the machine that makes Kinect work, but since we're a community of nerds, I'm sure there's at least 1223 distinctions to be drawn here.
  - pyre 16y ago
    DirectTV is a service. You hack the machine to receive the service for free. It can never be impossible for them to detect that and shut you down.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      I don't follow. People used to hack DirecTV machines to receive the service for free. DirecTV detected that, and shut all those people down. How much does it cost today to obtain a device that gets free pay-per-view?
      - pyre 16y ago
        There are still people that do it, so far as I understand, but it is a dedicated bunch and takes enough time that it's not something that will easily be in the hands of people that don't have intimate knowledge of the systems.
        tptacek 16y ago
        It used to cost $150? to get unlimited free pay-per-view. I know; I had a hacked card (we paid for DTV, but I liked being able to record The Simpsons from every local network carried on DTV, back when The Simpsons was actually decent). What does it cost now?
  - 16y ago
javanix 16y ago
That's not quite the same situation as hardware hacking - DirectTV's countermeasures basically come down to detecting fraud and disabling the users, not preventing it completely. What just about all consumer electronics companies have failed to do is lock down their hardware from being hacked in the first place - after all, Sony and Apple also pay some of the best in the world, and the PS3 and iPhone have been cracked wide open with software. Microsoft is certainly better than most (the 360 doesn't yet have a software patch - there are hardware solutions - that can be used for piracy), but they are by no means immune to hackers.
- tptacek 16y ago
  I believe you're wrong about the nature of DirectTV's countermeasures, although we may be in a semantic tar pit here. The measures DirectTV took to stop the emulators were very, very technical; they involve encryption at the level of HDL.
mkramlich 16y ago
> Microsoft pays some of the best in the world. Some of the best. And most of the best are "out there" and not on their payroll. Plus it's not impossible that some of these supposed best on their payroll may also contribute, on the side, to helping hack/crack their products, anonymously. Regardless though, I bet for every 1 world-class hacker inside Microsoft there are 100+ outside of it, and some of the latter will have the interest and time and skills to hack it.

teh 16y ago

As someone who as sunk considerable amounts of time into PS3 hacking I can say that sony do a pretty good job. Not initially, but their current firmware (3.5) is pretty closed.