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> I'm bothered by the modifer "much". If you are indeed talking about a physical principle, shouldn't this be an absolute limit rather than a suggestion? It's

> I'm bothered by the modifer "much". If you are indeed talking about a physical principle, shouldn't this be an absolute limit rather than a suggestion? It's an absolute limit on the amount of incoming irradiance you can create to your object. The actual equilibrium temperature it reaches will depend on additional factors like how well your object loses heat (eg. by conduction) compared to a moon rock. In this case, the temperature of moon rocks is probably a reasonable upper bound of the achievable temperature of an object on the earth: - Moon rocks are in vacuum, while something on earth is in contact with air and dissipating heat by convection. - Moon rocks are in contact with the surface of the moon (~100°C), whereas an earth object is in contact with the ground, or your hand, or whatever (~37°C, assuming your hand). So heat loss by conduction will be greater on the ground. If you rigged up something to suspend your object in vacuum without touching anything so that conductive heat losses ~0, maybe you could get something slightly hotter than the average surface temperature of the moon. But not hotter than a well placed moon rock that already happens to be making near 0 contact with the moon's surface (due to standing on a point or something). > If I were to change the moon to be an ultra-thin and highly heat conductive hemispherical shell rather than a solid sphere, I'd assume the surface temperature would drop. In that case much more heat would escape around to the unlit side, and the moon's surface temperature would reach somewhere between the "day" (~100°C) and "night" (~-200°C) temperatures. Say around -50°C. In that case the surface temperature will be less representative of that achievable for an object on earth. A moon rock touching the ground would be in contact with -50°C, which is colder than the 37°C for an object held in your hand.

nkurz 8y ago
Thanks for the reply, and I think I agree with all the physical processes you describe, but I'm not convinced that your approximations are correct. I'm going to keep pushing a bit to see if we can resolve this as well. [The surface temperature of the moon is] an absolute limit on the amount of incoming irradiance you can create to your object. This is true for a black body, but why are you convinced this is true for the actual moon? I think we agree that a more reflective moon could have a lower surface temperature while increasing incoming irradiance on the earth. And we both agree that the moon is partially reflective. Doesn't this mean that the surface temperature is not an absolute limit? I think the correct statement is that the intensity of light from the sun to the moon gives a limit on both the surface temperature of the moon (highest if we assume the moon is a blackbody) and a limit on the amount of sunlight reflected toward the earth (highest if we assume the moon is a perfect reflector). Since the moon absorbs about 90% of the light incident on it, we can assume that the surface temperature is lower than it would be if it was a perfect black body, presumably reaching a temperature corresponding to a sun that was about 10% less strong. The 10% of light that is reflected, although diffused in all directions, is much more intense when viewed from earth than low energy blackbody radiation that is also emitted. We know this intuitively because the sunlit moon is much brighter at night than the non-sunlit portion, and because the visible light is more energetic than the infrared, but could integrate across the energy spectrum to find an exact answer. As such, unless we are willing to make some additional assumptions, I don't think we can make any firm claim about the the maximum temperature achievable on the earth using lunar reflected sunlight based only on knowledge of the surface temperature of the moon. In practice, the scattered sunlight doesn't provide a lot of energy, so heating with it will be difficult. But it's energy incident on the earth that matters, not the temperature of the lunar surface. Would you agree with this summary? Are there additional assumptions that you think should be added that would provide the tighter limit you want? Alternatively, is there something other than "[The surface temperature of the moon is]" that you think I should have substituted for "It's"?
- nshepperd 8y ago
  > [The surface temperature of the moon is] an absolute limit on the amount of incoming irradiance you can create to your object. It's the radiance (brightness) of the moon (as perceived at the moon) that is an absolute limit on the incoming irradiance you can create, because of conservation of etendue. Separately, the fact that moon rocks (which experience that exact amount of irradiance) reach some given temperature X°C while losing very little heat to conduction (certainly less than an object on earth would), shows that this level of irradiance is insufficient to heat up your kindling above X°C. This argument has nothing to do with the moon being a black body, or an approximate black body, or any such thing. Just the fact that moon rocks, which are exposed to this light (with very little heat conductive losses), function as a kind of a thermometer which tells you how hot that light can make something[1]; and the answer is "a bit over 100°C" > Since the moon absorbs about 90% of the light incident on it, we can assume that the surface temperature is lower than it would be if it was a perfect black body, presumably reaching a temperature corresponding to a sun that was about 10% less strong. No... An object with 90% absorbance absorbs 10% less light energy, yes. But it also emits 10% less light energy, so the two effects cancel out and it reaches the same equilibrium temperature as a black body. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_temperature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_temperature
  - nkurz 8y ago
    It's the radiance (brightness) of the moon (as perceived at the moon) that is an absolute limit on the incoming irradiance you can create, because of conservation of etendue. Well yes, this is what it should say! Is this our disagreement? Because for me (and I think for most other dissenters in this thread) the whole problem we have with Munroe's argument is that he keeps coming back to the surface temperature of the moon as the limiting factor. If he was simply to say that the moon is not bright enough, then we'd probably all agree. the fact that moon rocks ... reach some given temperature X°C ... shows that this level of irradiance is insufficient to heat up your kindling above X°C. I think this is the real point of dispute. We agree that this is true if we are only considering pure blackbody radiation. What's not clear (at least to me) is that this equivalence is still true when you include the directly reflected light. That is, no one thinks that you can start a fire using only the thermal infrared light from a dark moon. The question is whether it's hypothetically possible with a sufficiently bright sun and sufficiently reflective moon, without raising the surface temperature. Can you point to something that makes this argument more directly?[1] the two effects cancel out and it reaches the same equilibrium temperature as a black body I need to learn more about this. I have trouble thinking it applies correctly here, because it's assuming the moon is a perfect gray body. I think this assumption falls apart if it's actually reflecting light, which in fact we know it is. Or am I wrong? Does a silver mirror in space actually end up at the same equilibrium temperature as a lump of coal? I guess it could. This wouldn't harm much argument (the argument just requires that the temperature not increase), but would indicate that I'm not viewing things correctly. Summarizing, I think the point of dispute is whether the surface temperature of an object in space can always be reasonably estimated from its brightness (and vice versa). We agree that it can be if it's a perfect black body. We agree that it's mathematically true if it's a "gray body". We disagree (I think) as to whether it's appropriate to make the simplification of assuming that all stellar objects are sufficiently close to "gray bodies" for the math to hold. [1] Here's the outline of the counterargument. Start with a blackbody moon. Estimate that with perfect optics you can heat an object to X. Now increase the reflectivity of the no-longer-black-body, noting that the surface temperature does not increase. I'd argue that when you increase the reflectivity, the moon gets brighter, and thus you can heat your object to a higher temperature. You seem to be arguing that because the surface temperature remains the same, the attainable heat stays the same, even though you can collect more reflected energy.

nkurz 8y ago

Thanks for the reply, and I think I agree with all the physical processes you describe, but I'm not convinced that your approximations are correct. I'm going to keep pushing a bit to see if we can resolve this as well. [The surface temperature of the moon is] an absolute limit on the amount of incoming irradiance you can create to your object. This is true for a black body, but why are you convinced this is true for the actual moon? I think we agree that a more reflective moon could have a lower surface temperature while increasing incoming irradiance on the earth. And we both agree that the moon is partially reflective. Doesn't this mean that the surface temperature is not an absolute limit? I think the correct statement is that the intensity of light from the sun to the moon gives a limit on both the surface temperature of the moon (highest if we assume the moon is a blackbody) and a limit on the amount of sunlight reflected toward the earth (highest if we assume the moon is a perfect reflector). Since the moon absorbs about 90% of the light incident on it, we can assume that the surface temperature is lower than it would be if it was a perfect black body, presumably reaching a temperature corresponding to a sun that was about 10% less strong. The 10% of light that is reflected, although diffused in all directions, is much more intense when viewed from earth than low energy blackbody radiation that is also emitted. We know this intuitively because the sunlit moon is much brighter at night than the non-sunlit portion, and because the visible light is more energetic than the infrared, but could integrate across the energy spectrum to find an exact answer. As such, unless we are willing to make some additional assumptions, I don't think we can make any firm claim about the the maximum temperature achievable on the earth using lunar reflected sunlight based only on knowledge of the surface temperature of the moon. In practice, the scattered sunlight doesn't provide a lot of energy, so heating with it will be difficult. But it's energy incident on the earth that matters, not the temperature of the lunar surface. Would you agree with this summary? Are there additional assumptions that you think should be added that would provide the tighter limit you want? Alternatively, is there something other than "[The surface temperature of the moon is]" that you think I should have substituted for "It's"?

nshepperd 8y ago
> [The surface temperature of the moon is] an absolute limit on the amount of incoming irradiance you can create to your object. It's the radiance (brightness) of the moon (as perceived at the moon) that is an absolute limit on the incoming irradiance you can create, because of conservation of etendue. Separately, the fact that moon rocks (which experience that exact amount of irradiance) reach some given temperature X°C while losing very little heat to conduction (certainly less than an object on earth would), shows that this level of irradiance is insufficient to heat up your kindling above X°C. This argument has nothing to do with the moon being a black body, or an approximate black body, or any such thing. Just the fact that moon rocks, which are exposed to this light (with very little heat conductive losses), function as a kind of a thermometer which tells you how hot that light can make something[1]; and the answer is "a bit over 100°C" > Since the moon absorbs about 90% of the light incident on it, we can assume that the surface temperature is lower than it would be if it was a perfect black body, presumably reaching a temperature corresponding to a sun that was about 10% less strong. No... An object with 90% absorbance absorbs 10% less light energy, yes. But it also emits 10% less light energy, so the two effects cancel out and it reaches the same equilibrium temperature as a black body. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_temperature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_temperature
- nkurz 8y ago
  It's the radiance (brightness) of the moon (as perceived at the moon) that is an absolute limit on the incoming irradiance you can create, because of conservation of etendue. Well yes, this is what it should say! Is this our disagreement? Because for me (and I think for most other dissenters in this thread) the whole problem we have with Munroe's argument is that he keeps coming back to the surface temperature of the moon as the limiting factor. If he was simply to say that the moon is not bright enough, then we'd probably all agree. the fact that moon rocks ... reach some given temperature X°C ... shows that this level of irradiance is insufficient to heat up your kindling above X°C. I think this is the real point of dispute. We agree that this is true if we are only considering pure blackbody radiation. What's not clear (at least to me) is that this equivalence is still true when you include the directly reflected light. That is, no one thinks that you can start a fire using only the thermal infrared light from a dark moon. The question is whether it's hypothetically possible with a sufficiently bright sun and sufficiently reflective moon, without raising the surface temperature. Can you point to something that makes this argument more directly?[1] the two effects cancel out and it reaches the same equilibrium temperature as a black body I need to learn more about this. I have trouble thinking it applies correctly here, because it's assuming the moon is a perfect gray body. I think this assumption falls apart if it's actually reflecting light, which in fact we know it is. Or am I wrong? Does a silver mirror in space actually end up at the same equilibrium temperature as a lump of coal? I guess it could. This wouldn't harm much argument (the argument just requires that the temperature not increase), but would indicate that I'm not viewing things correctly. Summarizing, I think the point of dispute is whether the surface temperature of an object in space can always be reasonably estimated from its brightness (and vice versa). We agree that it can be if it's a perfect black body. We agree that it's mathematically true if it's a "gray body". We disagree (I think) as to whether it's appropriate to make the simplification of assuming that all stellar objects are sufficiently close to "gray bodies" for the math to hold. [1] Here's the outline of the counterargument. Start with a blackbody moon. Estimate that with perfect optics you can heat an object to X. Now increase the reflectivity of the no-longer-black-body, noting that the surface temperature does not increase. I'd argue that when you increase the reflectivity, the moon gets brighter, and thus you can heat your object to a higher temperature. You seem to be arguing that because the surface temperature remains the same, the attainable heat stays the same, even though you can collect more reflected energy.