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The GPS wars have begun
- robotbikes 8y ago"Theoretically, one positioning chip could be designed to incorporate all of these different systems, but that might run afoul of U.S. national security laws." - the author mentions this speculatively but doesn't provide any citations. Does anyone know what they might be referring to and also what level of technology it would require to use multiple satellite networks at once or switch been them.
- sftwds 8y agoGPS+GLONASS chips have been available for a while now. Here’s an article about some new chips which support 4 constellations: https://www.gpsworld.com/quad-constellation-receiver-gps-glonass-galileo-beidou/ https://www.gpsworld.com/quad-constellation-receiver-gps-glo...
- _trampeltier 8y agoSince most smartphones today work at least with GPS and GLONASS, what does happen, if just one signal for ex. the GPS signal is spoofed / faked?
- jlgaddis 8y agoNFI. My iPhone 6s (a few years old) includes "Assisted GPS, GLONASS, Galileo, and QZSS" [0] and I suspect that most other modern mobile phones do as well. Besides, I would consider relying totally on any one country's GNSS (especially when several are available at very little additional cost) to be a rather poor decision. [0]: https://support.apple.com/kb/SP726?locale=en_US https://support.apple.com/kb/SP726?locale=en_US
- bjoli 8y agoI use a lower end phone (250ish dollars) that has (at least) both GPS and glonass.
- metaphor 8y agoI suspect it has something to do with the potential for a chip to be classified as USML Cat XII(d) under ITAR, more specifically, "specially designed for use with a null steering antenna, an electronically steerable antenna, or including a nullsteering antenna designed to reduce or avoid jamming signal"[1]. The actual USML[2] is a bit...verbose. [1] http://insidegnss.com/u-s-eases-export-regulations-for-gps-receivers/ http://insidegnss.com/u-s-eases-export-regulations-for-gps-r... [2] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?node=pt22.1.121#se22.1.121_11 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?node=pt22.1.121#se22.1...
- jacknews 8y agoYes this seems strange, I can only assume that it means the devices will still function accurately despite any US GPS degradation (eg around military installations, sensitive events etc), ie they will no longer be under US control. But that would apply whether they are multi-system capable, or just that they can read the other systems, and are not entirely dependent on GPS.
- omgtehlion 8y agoThat is bullshit. ~7 yeras ago I worked at a company, which designed and manufactured GNSS receivers capable of receiving gps,glonass,gallileo,qzss and blend the signals to get more accurate solution. Receivers started at $5000 a pop though. The company had no problems selling in the US abd Russia. And even had multiple competitors. Hence, expert/import laws are not a problem. At least for professional equipment.
- omgtehlion 8y agoP.S.: the tech was around at least a decade ago. Nowadays you can have at least alternating mode in cheap consumer devices.
- olex 8y agoNowadays, combined GNSS receivers like you mention are available from various electronic retailers for around 20-50$ a piece. The uBlox Neo M8 is a popular chip, there are a few others too. They are widely used in UAVs (where I know them from) and a variety of other applications, and routinely use anywhere between 22-28 active satellites from multiple constellations (compared to typical 7-11 visible for GPS alone).
- lozenge 8y agoThe national security laws prevent chips from working if you're above a certain height and over a certain speed. Although most chips implement an "or" instead of an "and". As for military receivers, apparently they are unclassified but plug into a separate system that works like a TPM and provides the decryption keys, which have to be refreshed at least once a year.
- mpweiher 8y agoTitle needs fix: Begun the GPS wars have. But seriously, "war"? Positioning has turned out to be such a vital economic factor that having multiple suppliers seems such an obvious Good Thing™ that it shouldn't need explaining, and the article doesn't really offer any support for its "war" rhetoric apart from showing that there are multiple suppliers. Despite the assurances that were made, even I as a citizen of an "ally" of the US am not comfortable with sole dependence on GPS and find Galileo a good project. And as we can see, it only takes one unhinged administration to make such assurances next to worthless. If you're higher up on the shitlist (unclear at this point how that's ordered), the need become greater.
- burfog 8y agoThe US GPS system was alone for so long that people just call it "GPS". The name is Navstar-GPS. Those other systems are also GPS, but not Navstar.
- Waterluvian 8y agoGNSS has become the accepted blanket term for them all. GPS is the U.S. one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation
- billfruit 8y agoI thought Glonass satellites were up in orbit by mid 80s almost the same time as the US Navistar system.
- omgtehlion 8y agoThey were up there at the time but not complete constellation
- megablast 8y agoI wonder if having all these extra satellites will increase the accuracy of GPS positioning? Surely it would, as long as they could all be used at the same time.
- xhruso00 8y agoGPS is not super accurate for average consumers. Only military has centimetres precision.
- extrapickles 8y agoThe new Block III GPS sats have a new civilian signal that will improve the quality of a fix as the ionosphere can be directly measured. Jury is still out on how well the extra signal will improve accuracy as there isn’t a full set of sats that broadcast it yet.
- lozenge 8y agoWhy are they improving civilian accuracy and will military still have more accurate fixes, or just less jammable signals?
- extrapickles 8y agoMost of the upgrades to the civilian bands are for faster first fixes and making it so a fix is consistently more accurate. Also the ionosphere can be directly measured by your gps receiver, so fixes will be more accurate. They are doing this because many civilian applications have emerged that need a more accurate signal (one is turn-by-turn navigation). When GPS was first developed, it was first envisioned as outputting coordinates and you looked up your location on a paper map, where 2m was better than most maps you could get. The military is getting the ability to get a signal that is 100x more powerful in a small area. It will be awhile before we see receivers using the new signal as the first of the new GPS sats launched today (some of the old ones are broadcasting the new signal, but not enough of them)
- 8y ago
- xhruso00 8y agoCan someone explain me Glonass? I see those chips in smartphones however I don't know if and how they are used in 2018
- jabberthemutt 8y agoWhat do you want to know? Basically it's just another set of GNSS satellites that devices can use for positioning, if their chipset supports it. Customers benefit greatly from this.
- xhruso00 8y agoDo we benefit already? I have no idea which positioning system is in effect. E.g. I am in Russia - Have I just used GPS, Galilleo, Glonass or combination of all 3 of them (iPhone 8).
- ymolodtsov 8y agoYour iPhone is indifferent to the type of the system and likely uses several of them at once.
- jabberthemutt 8y agoOn android there are countless apps that show you the satellites currently received, I guess there are similar apps for iphones as well.
- usrusr 8y agoSome (many? all? I have no idea) consumer chipsets with multiple GNSS support can get position from multiple constellations, but cannot combine the signals into one mixed constellation result of better quality than the best single-constellation result they get. In most cases what you see is the GPS result, except when you are close to one of the poles, which are uniquely (afaik) served by Glonass.
- 77pt77 8y ago> I don't know if and how they are used in 2018 Even 100 USD android phones use GPS and glonass and have done so for a while. It decreases the time needed for a fix for example.
- Friedduck 8y agoI was curious and checked the specs for my bike computer: “Supported Satellites: GPS, GLONASS, BEIDOU Galileo, and QZSS.” This is in a $250 unit so clearly neither cost nor geopolitics seem to be obstacles.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y agoCould private satellite constellations (e.g SpaceX Starlink) also provide a global positioning service?
- Leherenn 8y agoYou mean theoretically or with the current hardware they are using? Given they are going for low cost mass produced, I doubt they have the necessary hardware, especially the highly accurate clocks. If you're speaking theoretically, yes, again the hardest would probably be the clocks, but there's no reason a private company can't produce them if needed. The bigger issue would be that they would have to compete against the free, government-subsidiesed networks, which seems really tough. Maybe if they target the really high accuracy only available to the military, but even then codeless is already good enough for most applications.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago>Maybe if they target the really high accuracy only available to the military, but even then codeless is already good enough for most applications. I had autonomous vehicles in mind, which would certainly benefit from a highly accurate, ubiquitous and reliable positioning system (esp. if companies like Tesla can be supplied directly by SpaceX).
- lolc 8y agoIn my view the perspective of the author is needlessly antagonistic. China is only demanding inclusion of their own Beidou system, with no mention of banning other systems. As others here have pointed out: That Beidou receivers could be banned in the U.S. seems to be baseless speculation on part of the author. The good news: There will be four competing global positioning systems available to consumers. They're motivated to operate their systems out of strategic military and economic reasons. To call this a war is uncalled for. It's an arms-race with civilian benefits. It would be a war if they jammed or destroyed each other's satellites.
- notacoward 8y ago> To call this a war is uncalled for Agreed. It reminds me of a saying: "To those accustomed to privilege, equality seems like an attack." This isn't exactly privilege, but same principle. The US has been used to defining the category. Now they don't. To the insecure that seems like a threat, not a move toward the federated kind of system it should always have been.
- paraditedc 8y agoCompletely off-topic, but the world is more than just us versus them: A good read from 1998, Taking a “War of Words” Too Literally: https://paradite.com/2014/01/23/good-articletaking-a-war-of-words-too-literally/ https://paradite.com/2014/01/23/good-articletaking-a-war-of-...
- kingosticks 8y agoHow does the UK estimate it would cost them so much less than everyone else to provide their own equivalent system? Or is this just a really bad attempt at negotiating down passive use of Galileo in the future?
- BillinghamJ 8y agoPerhaps because the physical land area it needs to cover is very small?
- kingosticks 8y agoMay's argument was regarding the military's need to depend on the tech and that alone is a requirement for it to work globally.
- blattimwind 8y agoWhy, is she trying to bring the Empire back? That ship sailed a looong time ago.
- johnjonesyc 8y agoraw sensor access matters, so does calibration you can see some characteristics of devices here: https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/sensors/gnss https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/sensors/gnss Its relatively simple to jam GNSS signals since they are so weak. QZSS is a interesting formation since it is designed for urban environment (skyscrapers and canyons) The USA has no solution for shipping positioning outside of GPS...
- CraigGivant 8y agoHave to agree with others that the title of this article is misleading. Positioning satelites have been deployed by different countries for many years and the truth is the US "birds" are in various stages of disrepair. Yes they have launched some new updated SV's (space vehicles) but not enough to offset the advantages provided by a full constelation of high end, new tech, units. The true "war" revolves around selective availability which is controlled by each individual entity. It is important to note that positioning quality does not improve based strictly on the number of satelites a receiver can see but more so the configuration of the satelites that are available at any given time. In some cases less is actually more and the difference would never be noticible to the average consumer.