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A whole slice of Japanese workers’ have life that squarely fall in “poor and dull”. The overworking cliche is only true to an extent, but still working poor peo

by hrktb 8y ago

A whole slice of Japanese workers’ have life that squarely fall in “poor and dull”. The overworking cliche is only true to an extent, but still working poor people are plenty and their number rising could arguably be the main factor in the population demographic change. “I don’t make enough money to build a family” is a very prevalent sentiment looking around IRL and on social media, and seems to be corroborated by the stats.

InGodsName 8y ago
I don't think it works like that. My overworked friends don't feel that helpless. They can eat out anytime, go to any concert they desire, buy any gadget. They feel secure and safe, they work hard only due to expectation and societal pressure but a few many are self driven And they don't think like ohhh we don't have capacity to have kids. They infact say they can have kids anytime they wish and they aren't missing out on something. It's kinda network effect. You go on social media, you see indepdent guy bunjee jumping and some couples posting photos of their kids, which one gets more likes? Obviously bunjee jumping one. So, we are conditioned to seek inviduality/freedom/lack of family responsibilies. I would say, increasing workplace responsibilities are also to blame. If you are CEO of a company, i think you've same profile of busy time as a normal guy with a baby who has to take of it. But which one gets more praises? obviously the one who takes corporate responsibilites. I don't know if someone gets praises for having kids. Infact, if you are trying to adjust your babys carrier while walking on footpath, people are like wtf? Why can't these guys keep their baby at home. Baby cries, same, wtf....why can't these guys keep their baby at home? You feel embarrassed and feel like you did something wrong.
- perfmode 8y ago
  > They can eat out anytime, go to any concert they desire, buy any gadget. They feel secure and safe, they work hard only due to expectation and societal pressure but a few many are self driven To what extent is the ability to consume a substantiated good and to what extent is it an illusory good?
- bobthechef 8y ago
  Which illustrates the disgusting superficiality and emptiness of those people. I once listened to a lecture where the ethos of consumerism was blamed for the paradox of low birth rates among higher earners over lower earners, that is, you don't find that happening in non-consumerist societies. The reason was that higher earners were more likely to be keeping up with the Jones' and thus preferred to spend their extra income on buying crap and showing off. This tendency might actually be reversed among very high earners who can afford to do both. (FYI, the cost of having an additional child in a traditional society is actually cheaper as you have more children.)
  - watwut 8y ago
    It is not only consumerism and money or things. A women in consumerist countries has a lot to loose by having child - you won't be fully same and equal as before. In non consumerist the loss is not the same.
  - dgut 8y ago
    I believe the low birth rates among higher earners has to do with the simple fact that high earners are more carrier oriented (for various reasons). It's hard to educate yourself and bring up children at the same time (my wife is currently there). Anecdotally, a friend just recently failed her (unpaid) PhD because in France (where she lives) in her field you have 4 years to finish. She is Middle-eastern, and she decided to have two children during that period. Some countries (take Cuba for instance) have little consumerism but their birthrate remains low (dysfunctional economy + educated population).
- dgut 8y ago
  Sad truth. I feel like this is very generational though. Where I live (Spain) adults and older people are generally very sweet towards kids, they really appreciate the presence of kids. The younger generation already has a much colder/negative (noticeable) attitude towards kids. Have you thought of why people who have kids create groups? I'm starting to think that it's much like a defensive mechanism, a form of protection.
fiblye 8y ago
The bottom 5% of people in Japan are still generally better off than the bottom 20% in places like America. Very few people are sleeping on the streets and kids aren't absolutely hopeless and joining gangs as a way out. Japan is probably the best country to be poor in, because you can still afford rent, food, and health insurance and you don't need to worry about living in a crime-ridden area with a high risk of murder and robbery--because such neighborhoods literally do not exist. People are worrying about whether they can afford to have a kid and pay for daycare or still enjoy their summer vacation while hauling a baby around, not if they can afford to have anything to eat for the upcoming week.
- hrktb 8y ago
  I totally agree with you. Japan is afar far ahead of a ton of countries. I think there is the external look where we can assert they are well off and don’t risk to die, and the internal look where social pressure, actual mental state and comparing themselves to the image pushed by the media and previous generations make them feel like they are barely alive and way beyond where they should be to qualify as “well off” by society’s standard. I am not justifying that kind of tunnel view (though I am sympathic to a certain point. Working 12h a day a shitty job to barely pay the rent would make me sick), just that people in that kind of spiral won’t feel like they have enough resource to care for another human or two.

by hrktb 8y ago

InGodsName 8y ago

I don't think it works like that. My overworked friends don't feel that helpless. They can eat out anytime, go to any concert they desire, buy any gadget. They feel secure and safe, they work hard only due to expectation and societal pressure but a few many are self driven And they don't think like ohhh we don't have capacity to have kids. They infact say they can have kids anytime they wish and they aren't missing out on something. It's kinda network effect. You go on social media, you see indepdent guy bunjee jumping and some couples posting photos of their kids, which one gets more likes? Obviously bunjee jumping one. So, we are conditioned to seek inviduality/freedom/lack of family responsibilies. I would say, increasing workplace responsibilities are also to blame. If you are CEO of a company, i think you've same profile of busy time as a normal guy with a baby who has to take of it. But which one gets more praises? obviously the one who takes corporate responsibilites. I don't know if someone gets praises for having kids. Infact, if you are trying to adjust your babys carrier while walking on footpath, people are like wtf? Why can't these guys keep their baby at home. Baby cries, same, wtf....why can't these guys keep their baby at home? You feel embarrassed and feel like you did something wrong.

perfmode 8y ago
> They can eat out anytime, go to any concert they desire, buy any gadget. They feel secure and safe, they work hard only due to expectation and societal pressure but a few many are self driven To what extent is the ability to consume a substantiated good and to what extent is it an illusory good?
bobthechef 8y ago
Which illustrates the disgusting superficiality and emptiness of those people. I once listened to a lecture where the ethos of consumerism was blamed for the paradox of low birth rates among higher earners over lower earners, that is, you don't find that happening in non-consumerist societies. The reason was that higher earners were more likely to be keeping up with the Jones' and thus preferred to spend their extra income on buying crap and showing off. This tendency might actually be reversed among very high earners who can afford to do both. (FYI, the cost of having an additional child in a traditional society is actually cheaper as you have more children.)
- watwut 8y ago
  It is not only consumerism and money or things. A women in consumerist countries has a lot to loose by having child - you won't be fully same and equal as before. In non consumerist the loss is not the same.
- dgut 8y ago
  I believe the low birth rates among higher earners has to do with the simple fact that high earners are more carrier oriented (for various reasons). It's hard to educate yourself and bring up children at the same time (my wife is currently there). Anecdotally, a friend just recently failed her (unpaid) PhD because in France (where she lives) in her field you have 4 years to finish. She is Middle-eastern, and she decided to have two children during that period. Some countries (take Cuba for instance) have little consumerism but their birthrate remains low (dysfunctional economy + educated population).
dgut 8y ago
Sad truth. I feel like this is very generational though. Where I live (Spain) adults and older people are generally very sweet towards kids, they really appreciate the presence of kids. The younger generation already has a much colder/negative (noticeable) attitude towards kids. Have you thought of why people who have kids create groups? I'm starting to think that it's much like a defensive mechanism, a form of protection.

fiblye 8y ago

The bottom 5% of people in Japan are still generally better off than the bottom 20% in places like America. Very few people are sleeping on the streets and kids aren't absolutely hopeless and joining gangs as a way out. Japan is probably the best country to be poor in, because you can still afford rent, food, and health insurance and you don't need to worry about living in a crime-ridden area with a high risk of murder and robbery--because such neighborhoods literally do not exist. People are worrying about whether they can afford to have a kid and pay for daycare or still enjoy their summer vacation while hauling a baby around, not if they can afford to have anything to eat for the upcoming week.

hrktb 8y ago
I totally agree with you. Japan is afar far ahead of a ton of countries. I think there is the external look where we can assert they are well off and don’t risk to die, and the internal look where social pressure, actual mental state and comparing themselves to the image pushed by the media and previous generations make them feel like they are barely alive and way beyond where they should be to qualify as “well off” by society’s standard. I am not justifying that kind of tunnel view (though I am sympathic to a certain point. Working 12h a day a shitty job to barely pay the rent would make me sick), just that people in that kind of spiral won’t feel like they have enough resource to care for another human or two.