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Yes, it's my favorite game of all time. No, I'm not sure you can really "get" the experience today. One thing older games were able to do was use time and bored

by evdev 8y ago

Yes, it's my favorite game of all time. No, I'm not sure you can really "get" the experience today. One thing older games were able to do was use time and boredom(!) for effect in a way that mostly doesn't exist nowadays with so many more well-made games with "optimized" reward systems. I think of Grim Fandango, where a lot of the effect of the narrative comes in the way scrounging for clues by trial and error makes it feel as if you really were stuck in that town for a year. Play through quickly with a strategy guide and you won't actually get the effect of the environment. Or take the difference between the original Zelda and the later games: I'd say the fact that the original completely lacked the well-marked trail of where you were supposed to be going and what you were supposed to be interacting with made it seem as if you had "found" a smaller part of a wider world, and you were reacting to its logic. Star Control II did both of these things as well as any game has. The reasons for your actions were always intrinsic (not to make "1/5" go to "3/5" and then "5/5", quest completed!) and your course through the game was meaningful because it took place in an economy of choice, effort, and time that was consistent and weighty. Beyond navel gazing, I think the real upshot is when something like Breath of the Wild is so universally adored, part of what you're seeing is all the potential being left on the table by the current paradigm of gerbil wheels with scrolling backdrops.

tptacek 8y ago
I replayed Star Control II a few months ago and felt it held up surprisingly well. If you get bored, the whole game has already been mapped out, so you can easily speed-run it.
- DamnInteresting 8y ago
  > the whole game has already been mapped out I bought Star Control 2 in a retail box, and it came with a big fold-out map of all of the stars, which I still have in a box somewhere. Granted, the map didn't tell you exactly what you would find at each star system, but it did subtly mark points of interest (which I failed to notice until after I had completed the game the first time).
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Without the FAQs online, there is a whole lot of grinding to do for star systems with resources worth mining on them, and the "fuel" system makes random grinding much more tedious.
    - withinrafael 8y ago
      True, every time I pick up the game for a replay, it's an instant "sell all landers until the (un)signed integer handling breaks and rake in unlimited Resource Units". Then I otherwise play normally and have a blast without the tedium of fuel.
      - afterburner 8y ago
        I've resisted this on nearly every playthrough. I actually find it fun, the exploration for resource rich systems felt sandbox-y. You only need to hit a few and you're mostly set.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      Which only shows how ahead of its time it was. Modern games love to fill your time with tedious resource grinds that can only be made tolerable by having the wiki open while you play.
- milesvp 8y ago
  It holds up every time I play it too, but it's certainly not going to create any zealots playing it for the first time today. I wrote copious notes while I played that game, something that I tried to do recently with a game, but eventually gave up in a moment of weakness and just looked for FAQs online. This was something you could do in 1992, I certainly had internet then, but you had to stop playing your game, possibly reboot, and then dial your modem, and try finding the answer with something like gopher, or hope that a local BBS had people talking about it. Basically it was enough bother that you'd power through a lot more than you would today. I also largely consider SC2 to be one of the first incrementals ever produced. I don't think there's any way you could beat the game the first time you played it, without knowing some key locations. There was just too much to explore. Like the first rainbow planet I found allowed me to make enough progress, that I think I beat the game the following playthrough. But like the article mentioned, this accidental incremental element just doesn't really fly today, especially for a game that can take hours of investment.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mratzloff 8y ago
When I look back at my favorite games of all time, they all evoke this feeling of "I can go anywhere and do anything. There's so much to do and see, and I'm a little nervous to venture out because I'm not sure I'll be able to find my way back." Star Control II is that game. So is Ultima VII, and several Infocom games that filled my imagination and seemed bigger than they were. Before the era of a complete walkthrough a click away that will lead you by the nose. The turning point was voiced dialogue. Once that became the norm, content became exponentially more expensive to produce, and so the size of the worlds shrank.
- bitexploder 8y ago
  Bethesda, particularly Skyrim, is pretty immersive and fun in the open world sense.
- fhbdukfrh 8y ago
  Modern examples of this are GTA5 and Zelda: Breath of the wild. They are not endless but huge open worlds that evoke similar feelings and emotions to what you describe
  - prawn 8y ago
    I found Horizon Zero Dawn somewhat similar. There were obviously edges, but they appeared natural and weren't always where you thought they would be. e.g., you could actually scale fairly rugged and steep cliffs and end up in places other games would never let you get near.
- creamyhorror 8y ago
  Superbly put. I miss the days of wandering into unfamiliar lands in Ultima VII - you never knew who or what you'd run into (and they'd be colourful characters and enemies - not just variants on a theme). I've read good things about BotW, and I'm glad this sort of living, open world still appears now and then in gaming.
- malkia 8y ago
  Sierra Quest games were like this - one pixel to the left, and you have to reload your last save :) In contrast with Lucasart ones - but both were fun, just in different way! Then came... "The Day of the Tentacle" - OMG!!!
heyjudy 8y ago
Don't have a favorite singular: Master of Orion Master of Magic Ascendancy Raptor: Call of the Shadows Chuck Yeager's Air Combat Command & Conquer Diablo Falcon 4 Gold Doom II (with some ridiculous levels I hacked like an enemies mosh pit on a secret outside area) Warcraft Capitalism SimCity Enhanced Welltris + Mouse Commander mod (TSR that converted mouse movement into simulated keypresses) 11th Hour Also: that universal crack/trainer from way back and all the demoscene goodness that went into awesome cracks, cheats and trainers

by evdev 8y ago

tptacek 8y ago

I replayed Star Control II a few months ago and felt it held up surprisingly well. If you get bored, the whole game has already been mapped out, so you can easily speed-run it.

DamnInteresting 8y ago
> the whole game has already been mapped out I bought Star Control 2 in a retail box, and it came with a big fold-out map of all of the stars, which I still have in a box somewhere. Granted, the map didn't tell you exactly what you would find at each star system, but it did subtly mark points of interest (which I failed to notice until after I had completed the game the first time).
- tptacek 8y ago
  Without the FAQs online, there is a whole lot of grinding to do for star systems with resources worth mining on them, and the "fuel" system makes random grinding much more tedious.
  - withinrafael 8y ago
    True, every time I pick up the game for a replay, it's an instant "sell all landers until the (un)signed integer handling breaks and rake in unlimited Resource Units". Then I otherwise play normally and have a blast without the tedium of fuel.
    - afterburner 8y ago
      I've resisted this on nearly every playthrough. I actually find it fun, the exploration for resource rich systems felt sandbox-y. You only need to hit a few and you're mostly set.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    Which only shows how ahead of its time it was. Modern games love to fill your time with tedious resource grinds that can only be made tolerable by having the wiki open while you play.
milesvp 8y ago
It holds up every time I play it too, but it's certainly not going to create any zealots playing it for the first time today. I wrote copious notes while I played that game, something that I tried to do recently with a game, but eventually gave up in a moment of weakness and just looked for FAQs online. This was something you could do in 1992, I certainly had internet then, but you had to stop playing your game, possibly reboot, and then dial your modem, and try finding the answer with something like gopher, or hope that a local BBS had people talking about it. Basically it was enough bother that you'd power through a lot more than you would today. I also largely consider SC2 to be one of the first incrementals ever produced. I don't think there's any way you could beat the game the first time you played it, without knowing some key locations. There was just too much to explore. Like the first rainbow planet I found allowed me to make enough progress, that I think I beat the game the following playthrough. But like the article mentioned, this accidental incremental element just doesn't really fly today, especially for a game that can take hours of investment.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

mratzloff 8y ago

When I look back at my favorite games of all time, they all evoke this feeling of "I can go anywhere and do anything. There's so much to do and see, and I'm a little nervous to venture out because I'm not sure I'll be able to find my way back." Star Control II is that game. So is Ultima VII, and several Infocom games that filled my imagination and seemed bigger than they were. Before the era of a complete walkthrough a click away that will lead you by the nose. The turning point was voiced dialogue. Once that became the norm, content became exponentially more expensive to produce, and so the size of the worlds shrank.

bitexploder 8y ago
Bethesda, particularly Skyrim, is pretty immersive and fun in the open world sense.
fhbdukfrh 8y ago
Modern examples of this are GTA5 and Zelda: Breath of the wild. They are not endless but huge open worlds that evoke similar feelings and emotions to what you describe
- prawn 8y ago
  I found Horizon Zero Dawn somewhat similar. There were obviously edges, but they appeared natural and weren't always where you thought they would be. e.g., you could actually scale fairly rugged and steep cliffs and end up in places other games would never let you get near.
creamyhorror 8y ago
Superbly put. I miss the days of wandering into unfamiliar lands in Ultima VII - you never knew who or what you'd run into (and they'd be colourful characters and enemies - not just variants on a theme). I've read good things about BotW, and I'm glad this sort of living, open world still appears now and then in gaming.
malkia 8y ago
Sierra Quest games were like this - one pixel to the left, and you have to reload your last save :) In contrast with Lucasart ones - but both were fun, just in different way! Then came... "The Day of the Tentacle" - OMG!!!

heyjudy 8y ago

Don't have a favorite singular: Master of Orion Master of Magic Ascendancy Raptor: Call of the Shadows Chuck Yeager's Air Combat Command & Conquer Diablo Falcon 4 Gold Doom II (with some ridiculous levels I hacked like an enemies mosh pit on a secret outside area) Warcraft Capitalism SimCity Enhanced Welltris + Mouse Commander mod (TSR that converted mouse movement into simulated keypresses) 11th Hour Also: that universal crack/trainer from way back and all the demoscene goodness that went into awesome cracks, cheats and trainers