5 ms·

this is so intellectually lazy. you don't have to look very hard at Cisco (and many other "US" companies) to find Five Eyes assistance embedded in their product

by pyvpx 8y ago

this is so intellectually lazy. you don't have to look very hard at Cisco (and many other "US" companies) to find Five Eyes assistance embedded in their products (either purposefully or by willful ignorance)

sonnyblarney 8y ago
I'm not at all denying that Cisco and others might be a gateway to five eyes. But there's also the fact that there is incredibly more oversight in 'five eyes' countries, and of course they are 'my side'. I naturally care less about 'us' spying on 'them' than I do 'them' spying on 'me'.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  There is more oversight in the five eyes countries, but that isn’t as reassuring as it sounds. Is anyone in those countries comfortable with what those organisation do and how they are controlled?
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    There is more oversight because a) 5 eyes are all democracies and b) there are elected bodies that have direct oversight of these activities. For example, in the US, there are both House and Senate committees which have oversight into various bodies and operations which are highly secretive. Example [1] Finally, c) there is an open and free press, and quite a number of whistle blowers and informants to the press, which have legal protection. That's very different from an authoritarian entity that answers to no-one, and does what they please. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_Select_Committee_on_Intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_Select_Co...
- 794CD01 8y ago
  As natural as it might be, it's wrong. If you are, for example, a US resident, the US government is in a great position to use any information they have about you. The Chinese government, not so much, especially if you have no desire or plans to travel to China.
  - gruez 8y ago
    what if you have skeletons in your closet (infidelity, drug use, fetishes, etc.), and China used them as leverage to get you to do stuff against your employer?
throwawaychino 8y ago
> Five Eyes assistance embedded in their products You don't see the Five Eyes nations harvesting organs of their citizens. Would you like me to list the other human rights violations China commits?
- hangonhn 8y ago
  Your reasoning makes no sense: China violates human rights therefore it is OK for the Five Eyes nations to spy on people? Your reasoning structurally unsound.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  That’s a what-aboutism. The organisations that participate in five-eyes are just as opaque as their Chinese counterparts from a citizens perspective and they have been monitoring their own populations. This aspect of five eyes government behaviour is uncomfortably close to Chinese government behaviour in my view. Obviously China’s human rights record is abysmal, and the five eyes countries are vastly closer to civilised.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    Five Eyes operate under political oversight (various committees of elected officials), the rule of law and an independent judiciary, there is a free press with protected informants, whistle blowers etc. etc.. Quite different than an authoritarian system.
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      I am very far from convinced of these things. The complete lack of transparency and the dubious things that have happened and been revealed by the likes of Wikileaks lead me to believe that their oversight is deeply flawed.

by pyvpx 8y ago

sonnyblarney 8y ago

I'm not at all denying that Cisco and others might be a gateway to five eyes. But there's also the fact that there is incredibly more oversight in 'five eyes' countries, and of course they are 'my side'. I naturally care less about 'us' spying on 'them' than I do 'them' spying on 'me'.

lostlogin 8y ago
There is more oversight in the five eyes countries, but that isn’t as reassuring as it sounds. Is anyone in those countries comfortable with what those organisation do and how they are controlled?
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  There is more oversight because a) 5 eyes are all democracies and b) there are elected bodies that have direct oversight of these activities. For example, in the US, there are both House and Senate committees which have oversight into various bodies and operations which are highly secretive. Example [1] Finally, c) there is an open and free press, and quite a number of whistle blowers and informants to the press, which have legal protection. That's very different from an authoritarian entity that answers to no-one, and does what they please. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_Select_Committee_on_Intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_Select_Co...
794CD01 8y ago
As natural as it might be, it's wrong. If you are, for example, a US resident, the US government is in a great position to use any information they have about you. The Chinese government, not so much, especially if you have no desire or plans to travel to China.
- gruez 8y ago
  what if you have skeletons in your closet (infidelity, drug use, fetishes, etc.), and China used them as leverage to get you to do stuff against your employer?

throwawaychino 8y ago

> Five Eyes assistance embedded in their products You don't see the Five Eyes nations harvesting organs of their citizens. Would you like me to list the other human rights violations China commits?

hangonhn 8y ago
Your reasoning makes no sense: China violates human rights therefore it is OK for the Five Eyes nations to spy on people? Your reasoning structurally unsound.
lostlogin 8y ago
That’s a what-aboutism. The organisations that participate in five-eyes are just as opaque as their Chinese counterparts from a citizens perspective and they have been monitoring their own populations. This aspect of five eyes government behaviour is uncomfortably close to Chinese government behaviour in my view. Obviously China’s human rights record is abysmal, and the five eyes countries are vastly closer to civilised.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Five Eyes operate under political oversight (various committees of elected officials), the rule of law and an independent judiciary, there is a free press with protected informants, whistle blowers etc. etc.. Quite different than an authoritarian system.
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    I am very far from convinced of these things. The complete lack of transparency and the dubious things that have happened and been revealed by the likes of Wikileaks lead me to believe that their oversight is deeply flawed.