5 ms·

Generally speaking, if a society isn't "evil" - and the situation doesn't really fit into any of the 'whistleblower' or 'opposition against an oppressive regime

by V-2 8y ago

Generally speaking, if a society isn't "evil" - and the situation doesn't really fit into any of the 'whistleblower' or 'opposition against an oppressive regime' scenarios - then why does it have to operate in secret? It's typical of mafia-like, criminal organizations. Case in point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

toofy 8y ago
From my perspective, this sounds far too much like “Why do you need privacy or cryptography if you have nothing to hide?” Everyone here should be well aware by now that wanting privacy != nefarious behavior.
- V-2 8y ago
  There's a difference between an individual and an organization that intends to have an impact on the society. The society can't, or shouldn't demand that I give up privacy of my inherently private matters. But it is very reasonable for the society to expect a basic degree of transparency from an NGO or a political party - insofar as the actions in question are meant to have public impact. It's a two-way street, to me. Note that I'm not even entering the subject of legal obligations here. Whether or how to enforce this approach is a separate discussion (quite a few democratic constitutions do forbid political organizations of clandestine structures and membership). I'm only referring to common sense, and what feels justified. Is it a private matter if someone held on trial is the judge's boss in a secret organization they both belong to?
  - wl 8y ago
    These kinds of organizations generally don't exist to have a public impact. They exist to transform individuals. > Is it a private matter if someone held on trial is the judge's boss in a secret organization they both belong to? A judge has an obligation to recuse where there's a conflict of interest, regardless of the nature of that conflict. This is not a good argument against private societies, unless you want to start banning any situation that could at some point lead to a conflict of interest.
wl 8y ago
I'm a member of several initiatory groups that practice secrecy. The secrecy bonds initiates together and makes the lessons imparted more powerful. Such practices have antecedents dating to antiquity. If it's not for you, that's fine.
- starbeast 8y ago
  I've known several people associated with masonry. One got kicked out after doing a 'mason in distress' sign at a judge to get his drug trial stopped. Another, who has held several senior positions within lodges, has a second secret life that he has to keep hidden from them. Is just all borrowed power games and as far as I can tell the deal isn't worth it, the last secret has got to be an empty box, the power being in the idea of the secret itself. Then you get to stand around and look all enlightened and stuff. Then you go home and the car still has a squeaky noise that nobody can identify and the bath drain is mysteriously full of hair.
  - wl 8y ago
    If you want to play power games in Freemasonry, you certainly can do so. That seems to me to be missing the point. I'm also not sure what kind of second secret life your friend has to hide from the craft. I think most folks misunderstand the use of secrecy in initiatic orders. If someone joins an order to learn their secrets, they will be sorely disappointed. Signs, passwords, and grips can have symbolic meaning, but they convey nothing the initiate is unlikely to already know. Some of the secret legends can be entertaining, but they, by themselves, won't improve your life. Rather, all these things are tools that, when used in concert, can bring about a change in a person. Not everyone needs or wants that, and that's fine.
    - starbeast 8y ago
      >I'm also not sure what kind of second secret life your friend has to hide from the craft. Some people try to be experts in theoretical conspiracy. I think he is just more into the experimental side of the field.
  - 8y ago
drb91 8y ago
I’ve always thought, without any real evidence, that these societies are a way for the upper class to collect dirt on each other before they enter power.

by V-2 8y ago

toofy 8y ago

From my perspective, this sounds far too much like “Why do you need privacy or cryptography if you have nothing to hide?” Everyone here should be well aware by now that wanting privacy != nefarious behavior.

V-2 8y ago
There's a difference between an individual and an organization that intends to have an impact on the society. The society can't, or shouldn't demand that I give up privacy of my inherently private matters. But it is very reasonable for the society to expect a basic degree of transparency from an NGO or a political party - insofar as the actions in question are meant to have public impact. It's a two-way street, to me. Note that I'm not even entering the subject of legal obligations here. Whether or how to enforce this approach is a separate discussion (quite a few democratic constitutions do forbid political organizations of clandestine structures and membership). I'm only referring to common sense, and what feels justified. Is it a private matter if someone held on trial is the judge's boss in a secret organization they both belong to?
- wl 8y ago
  These kinds of organizations generally don't exist to have a public impact. They exist to transform individuals. > Is it a private matter if someone held on trial is the judge's boss in a secret organization they both belong to? A judge has an obligation to recuse where there's a conflict of interest, regardless of the nature of that conflict. This is not a good argument against private societies, unless you want to start banning any situation that could at some point lead to a conflict of interest.

wl 8y ago

I'm a member of several initiatory groups that practice secrecy. The secrecy bonds initiates together and makes the lessons imparted more powerful. Such practices have antecedents dating to antiquity. If it's not for you, that's fine.

starbeast 8y ago
I've known several people associated with masonry. One got kicked out after doing a 'mason in distress' sign at a judge to get his drug trial stopped. Another, who has held several senior positions within lodges, has a second secret life that he has to keep hidden from them. Is just all borrowed power games and as far as I can tell the deal isn't worth it, the last secret has got to be an empty box, the power being in the idea of the secret itself. Then you get to stand around and look all enlightened and stuff. Then you go home and the car still has a squeaky noise that nobody can identify and the bath drain is mysteriously full of hair.
- wl 8y ago
  If you want to play power games in Freemasonry, you certainly can do so. That seems to me to be missing the point. I'm also not sure what kind of second secret life your friend has to hide from the craft. I think most folks misunderstand the use of secrecy in initiatic orders. If someone joins an order to learn their secrets, they will be sorely disappointed. Signs, passwords, and grips can have symbolic meaning, but they convey nothing the initiate is unlikely to already know. Some of the secret legends can be entertaining, but they, by themselves, won't improve your life. Rather, all these things are tools that, when used in concert, can bring about a change in a person. Not everyone needs or wants that, and that's fine.
  - starbeast 8y ago
    >I'm also not sure what kind of second secret life your friend has to hide from the craft. Some people try to be experts in theoretical conspiracy. I think he is just more into the experimental side of the field.
- 8y ago

drb91 8y ago

I’ve always thought, without any real evidence, that these societies are a way for the upper class to collect dirt on each other before they enter power.