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> ...yet it’s still a taboo area for people to speak about in the main stream... This would be a result of how many people immediately jump to absurd conclusio

by toofy 8y ago

> ...yet it’s still a taboo area for people to speak about in the main stream... This would be a result of how many people immediately jump to absurd conclusions that something evil absolutely must somehow be at play. It’s bizarre how many otherwise rational and logical humans turn into full blown conspiracy theorists the moment they read “secret society” it’s like their own personal rationality offswitch. Until we can calm down the mass hysteria surrounding this topic, it will almost certainly remain taboo, and honestly, considering how weird the topics always turn, I’d rather it stay taboo than watch a panicky hysterical mass attack innocent people who just want a bit of privacy. History is full of paranoid mass hysteria instances where the masses go absolutely bonkers and innocent people suffer—for somewhat recent examples, look at the satanic panics or Wenatchee WA where, in their hysteria, they issued 29,726 charges of child abuse... yes, that number is correct, 29,726 charges. A number of people’s lives were ruined as they were publicly dragged through the ordeal, yet not a single charge stuck. Not one. Mass hysteria is a very real phenomena and these topics of secret societies and the occult are probably better left as taboo, just reference any forum about the subject to see clear examples as to how much of our population are incredibly ill-equipped to discuss them rationally.

ikeboy 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenatchee_child_abuse_prosecutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenatchee_child_abuse_prosecut... says people were convicted, contrary to your claim
- toofy 8y ago
  From your link: “Those who were convicted were freed by higher courts and had their convictions overturned or pleaded guilty on lesser charges. Five served their full sentences before their cases were overturned. Some lost parental rights. By 2000, the last person in custody, Michael Rose, was released, after a judge vacated his March 1995 convictions.”
  - ikeboy 8y ago
    And? That doesn't say all charges were overturned - it says some pled guilty
    - toofy 8y ago
      Unfortunately the source link on that wiki is dead, but a different source: ”Many witnesses and defendants later said they were pressured into making false confessions and accusations by caseworkers from the Washington State Department of Social and Health Services (DSHS) and by Wenatchee Police Department Lieutenant Bob Perez. All who confessed later recanted. Some defendants said that when threatened with life imprisonment, they pled guilty to lesser charges. Some said they were told that if they confessed they wouldn't go to jail but would be treated in the community. Many were told they would never see their children again unless they signed a confession. Those questioned also said they were told that their children wouldn't be placed in foster care or put up for adoption if they signed confessions.” [0] Considering the entire contextual insanity of this case, the obvious and absolute hysteria which surrounded the entire case, the biased and careless ways the cases were handled, the decision making processes which happen when someone must choose between life in prison or lesser charges, the literal thousands of charges which were dropped/overturned, and perhaps most disturbing of all—the way that dissenters were suddenly brought up on charges, I have no problem sticking by my original statement: This was mass hysteria. [0] http://www.historylink.org/File/7065 http://www.historylink.org/File/7065
      - ikeboy 8y ago
        Your claim was the charges didn't stick, which doesn't seem accurate
        toofy 8y ago
        Well, if we insist on being pedantic rather than charitable, from your link: > Those who were convicted were freed by higher courts and had their convictions overturned or pleaded guilty on lesser charges It would seem they plead guilty to lesser charges. If it would make you feel better, I can amend my original post to say “...none of the original charges stuck...” Would this make you feel better?
V-2 8y ago
Generally speaking, if a society isn't "evil" - and the situation doesn't really fit into any of the 'whistleblower' or 'opposition against an oppressive regime' scenarios - then why does it have to operate in secret? It's typical of mafia-like, criminal organizations. Case in point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due
- toofy 8y ago
  From my perspective, this sounds far too much like “Why do you need privacy or cryptography if you have nothing to hide?” Everyone here should be well aware by now that wanting privacy != nefarious behavior.
  - V-2 8y ago
    There's a difference between an individual and an organization that intends to have an impact on the society. The society can't, or shouldn't demand that I give up privacy of my inherently private matters. But it is very reasonable for the society to expect a basic degree of transparency from an NGO or a political party - insofar as the actions in question are meant to have public impact. It's a two-way street, to me. Note that I'm not even entering the subject of legal obligations here. Whether or how to enforce this approach is a separate discussion (quite a few democratic constitutions do forbid political organizations of clandestine structures and membership). I'm only referring to common sense, and what feels justified. Is it a private matter if someone held on trial is the judge's boss in a secret organization they both belong to?
    - wl 8y ago
      These kinds of organizations generally don't exist to have a public impact. They exist to transform individuals. > Is it a private matter if someone held on trial is the judge's boss in a secret organization they both belong to? A judge has an obligation to recuse where there's a conflict of interest, regardless of the nature of that conflict. This is not a good argument against private societies, unless you want to start banning any situation that could at some point lead to a conflict of interest.
briantakita 8y ago
re: the satanic panic, the tunnels (under the school) reported by the children were verified years later. At the time, the inability to find the tunnels was key in discrediting the childrens' testimony. re: Wenatchee WA. The justice system not providing enough proof for a guilty verdict does not mean the events did not happen. It only means there was not proof beyond a reasonable doubt according to the courts. However, it does seem like law enforcement did not act ethically & it's more likely they created false testimony from their witness badgering (of children) & dubious theories. In this case, members of law enforcement conspired to create a false case. Sometimes people act on incomplete information and are correct. When organizations act in secret, a rational person ought not to trust these organizations. In the realm of politics, where warfare is fought in many domains, it is beneficial to be critical of such organizations. Otherwise, instead of being a "conspiracy theorist", one becomes a "coincidence theorist", when creating models of how & why related events occur.
- wl 8y ago
  > re: the satanic panic, the tunnels (under the school) reported by the children were verified years later. Some true believer found an anomaly with ground penetrating radar and called it a tunnel. It's more likely a buried garbage pile. https://journals.uic.edu/ojs/index.php/bsi/article/viewFile/77/96 https://journals.uic.edu/ojs/index.php/bsi/article/viewFile/...
  - briantakita 8y ago
    It's inconclusive at this point. If there were tunnels, they could have been filled in with "trash" by the time the ground penetrating radar reading was done. One possible avenue is to look up land permits & to create a case as to why the trash was filled in (if that's the case). However, this study is somebody's opinion of the readings, so it may not even be a trash pit. Further physical examination would probably be necessary to confirm one way or another, but at this point, it's a cold case. However, the childrens' testimonies of some sort of underground anomaly is a strange "coincidence". How would they know that there was something out of the ordinary underground, whether it's tunnels or buried trash? At this point, there are mysteries in this case & a number of possible truths. However, there are known cases of Satanism & ritual abuse. There's even more cases of testimony from different sources. I don't see this as a panic at all, but an acknowledgement of a possibility.
comicjk 8y ago
You're wondering why groups with names like "Skull and Bones" have an occult reputation? They cultivate it deliberately because it's cool. Yes, the public takes this cosplay too seriously, but they don't deserve all the blame.

by toofy 8y ago

ikeboy 8y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenatchee_child_abuse_prosecutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenatchee_child_abuse_prosecut... says people were convicted, contrary to your claim

toofy 8y ago
From your link: “Those who were convicted were freed by higher courts and had their convictions overturned or pleaded guilty on lesser charges. Five served their full sentences before their cases were overturned. Some lost parental rights. By 2000, the last person in custody, Michael Rose, was released, after a judge vacated his March 1995 convictions.”
- ikeboy 8y ago
  And? That doesn't say all charges were overturned - it says some pled guilty
  - toofy 8y ago
    Unfortunately the source link on that wiki is dead, but a different source: ”Many witnesses and defendants later said they were pressured into making false confessions and accusations by caseworkers from the Washington State Department of Social and Health Services (DSHS) and by Wenatchee Police Department Lieutenant Bob Perez. All who confessed later recanted. Some defendants said that when threatened with life imprisonment, they pled guilty to lesser charges. Some said they were told that if they confessed they wouldn't go to jail but would be treated in the community. Many were told they would never see their children again unless they signed a confession. Those questioned also said they were told that their children wouldn't be placed in foster care or put up for adoption if they signed confessions.” [0] Considering the entire contextual insanity of this case, the obvious and absolute hysteria which surrounded the entire case, the biased and careless ways the cases were handled, the decision making processes which happen when someone must choose between life in prison or lesser charges, the literal thousands of charges which were dropped/overturned, and perhaps most disturbing of all—the way that dissenters were suddenly brought up on charges, I have no problem sticking by my original statement: This was mass hysteria. [0] http://www.historylink.org/File/7065 http://www.historylink.org/File/7065
    - ikeboy 8y ago
      Your claim was the charges didn't stick, which doesn't seem accurate
      - toofy 8y ago
        Well, if we insist on being pedantic rather than charitable, from your link: > Those who were convicted were freed by higher courts and had their convictions overturned or pleaded guilty on lesser charges It would seem they plead guilty to lesser charges. If it would make you feel better, I can amend my original post to say “...none of the original charges stuck...” Would this make you feel better?

V-2 8y ago

Generally speaking, if a society isn't "evil" - and the situation doesn't really fit into any of the 'whistleblower' or 'opposition against an oppressive regime' scenarios - then why does it have to operate in secret? It's typical of mafia-like, criminal organizations. Case in point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

toofy 8y ago
From my perspective, this sounds far too much like “Why do you need privacy or cryptography if you have nothing to hide?” Everyone here should be well aware by now that wanting privacy != nefarious behavior.
- V-2 8y ago
  There's a difference between an individual and an organization that intends to have an impact on the society. The society can't, or shouldn't demand that I give up privacy of my inherently private matters. But it is very reasonable for the society to expect a basic degree of transparency from an NGO or a political party - insofar as the actions in question are meant to have public impact. It's a two-way street, to me. Note that I'm not even entering the subject of legal obligations here. Whether or how to enforce this approach is a separate discussion (quite a few democratic constitutions do forbid political organizations of clandestine structures and membership). I'm only referring to common sense, and what feels justified. Is it a private matter if someone held on trial is the judge's boss in a secret organization they both belong to?
  - wl 8y ago
    These kinds of organizations generally don't exist to have a public impact. They exist to transform individuals. > Is it a private matter if someone held on trial is the judge's boss in a secret organization they both belong to? A judge has an obligation to recuse where there's a conflict of interest, regardless of the nature of that conflict. This is not a good argument against private societies, unless you want to start banning any situation that could at some point lead to a conflict of interest.

briantakita 8y ago

re: the satanic panic, the tunnels (under the school) reported by the children were verified years later. At the time, the inability to find the tunnels was key in discrediting the childrens' testimony. re: Wenatchee WA. The justice system not providing enough proof for a guilty verdict does not mean the events did not happen. It only means there was not proof beyond a reasonable doubt according to the courts. However, it does seem like law enforcement did not act ethically & it's more likely they created false testimony from their witness badgering (of children) & dubious theories. In this case, members of law enforcement conspired to create a false case. Sometimes people act on incomplete information and are correct. When organizations act in secret, a rational person ought not to trust these organizations. In the realm of politics, where warfare is fought in many domains, it is beneficial to be critical of such organizations. Otherwise, instead of being a "conspiracy theorist", one becomes a "coincidence theorist", when creating models of how & why related events occur.

wl 8y ago
> re: the satanic panic, the tunnels (under the school) reported by the children were verified years later. Some true believer found an anomaly with ground penetrating radar and called it a tunnel. It's more likely a buried garbage pile. https://journals.uic.edu/ojs/index.php/bsi/article/viewFile/77/96 https://journals.uic.edu/ojs/index.php/bsi/article/viewFile/...
- briantakita 8y ago
  It's inconclusive at this point. If there were tunnels, they could have been filled in with "trash" by the time the ground penetrating radar reading was done. One possible avenue is to look up land permits & to create a case as to why the trash was filled in (if that's the case). However, this study is somebody's opinion of the readings, so it may not even be a trash pit. Further physical examination would probably be necessary to confirm one way or another, but at this point, it's a cold case. However, the childrens' testimonies of some sort of underground anomaly is a strange "coincidence". How would they know that there was something out of the ordinary underground, whether it's tunnels or buried trash? At this point, there are mysteries in this case & a number of possible truths. However, there are known cases of Satanism & ritual abuse. There's even more cases of testimony from different sources. I don't see this as a panic at all, but an acknowledgement of a possibility.

comicjk 8y ago

You're wondering why groups with names like "Skull and Bones" have an occult reputation? They cultivate it deliberately because it's cool. Yes, the public takes this cosplay too seriously, but they don't deserve all the blame.