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In cases like this, ideas and their development don't come for free, and subtract resources to truly addressing the problem. When it comes to ocean cleaning, t

In cases like this, ideas and their development don't come for free, and subtract resources to truly addressing the problem. When it comes to ocean cleaning, technological solutions are very attractive, because the population likes to think that they push a button, lay on a sofa, and the oceans get cleaned. Assuming we want to address the symptom and not the cause (in other words, if we want to clean the garbage in the ocean rather than preventing it to enter in the first place , which is still better than not taking action), there is a simple and valid solution, but it's not attractive, since there are no buttons to push, and it involves sweat: cleaning the beaches. Here's the old response to Slat's project; it's from 2013 and until now, it holds true: https://inhabitat.com/the-fallacy-of-cleaning-the-gyres-of-plastic-with-a-floating-ocean-cleanup-array https://inhabitat.com/the-fallacy-of-cleaning-the-gyres-of-p.... The article is top-to-bottom interesting. Two limited extracts: > So far, we’ve taken one gyre cleanup advocate across the South Atlantic, from Brazil to South Africa. We had 22 days of storms with seas in excess of 30 feet at times. By the time we got to the other side, some 30+ days later, he’d abandoned his hope of cleaning the gyres once he realized how big a ‘place’ we’re talking about. What I find astonishing is that out of all the gyre cleanup proponents I’ve met, none of them have ever been to the gyres. > the sea is one giant corrosive force. Even on just a month-long sail across The South Atlantic, we tore our sails twice, broke some rigging, and utterly destroyed a wind-powered generator—all due to the force of nature.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
> When it comes to ocean cleaning, technological solutions are very attractive, because the population likes to think that they push a button, lay on a sofa, and the oceans get cleaned. Please don't dismiss that. Here's a simple fact about humanity: the more people you need ask for something, the less likely it is that it's going to happen. Coordinating humans at scale is one of the hardest social problems[0]. Technological solutions are attractive precisely because they sidestep the need to get everyone on board. -- [0] - I'm inclined to believe that it's actually the hardest social problem, the root of all other problems.
clay_the_ripper 8y ago
Thanks for linking this, that’s an interesting article. I was not aware of the link between beach cleanup and gyre cleanup. I guess my general perspective is that: 1. I am not arguing that slats solution is the best solution or the only solution. I think that if it drives awareness of the issue and eventually leads us to a better solution, then it’s a success in a backwards kind of way, even if it doesn’t “succeed” 2. Concerns about its potential harm I think are a bit overblown. In real terms, what are we talking about in terms of bycatch and how does that compare percentage wise to “bycatch” from other human activities? (Shipping, commercial fishing, coastal development, climate change?). The impacts from those things are huge, so I doubt that this system is really going to make that big of an impact comparatively. 3. Complaints about the money that could have gone to other better things are also a bit invalid. I’m willing to bet that most of that 20 mil would not have gone to other solutions anyway. So it’s not taking money from other things in reality.
- pizza234 8y ago
  > 1. I am not arguing that slats solution is the best solution or the only solution. I think that if it drives awareness of the issue and eventually leads us to a better solution, then it’s a success in a backwards kind of way, even if it doesn’t “succeed” Critial positions argue that there are already valid solutions, and that boom-based technologies (and similar) are a lost cause. In this perspective, improvements to the latter technologies are nothing short of quixotic. > I’m willing to bet that most of that 20 mil would not have gone to other solutions anyway. So it’s not taking money from other things in reality. 20 millions, in the form of beach cleaning, would have cleaned a lot of garbage from the ocean[s].
solarengineer 8y ago
Please revisit that linked article. There is an Editorial note there stating: "Editor’s Note: This piece was written in response to a story published in 2013. As of 2014, Boyan Slat has conducted a feasibility study for the Ocean Cleanup Array and published a 530-page report that addresses criticism – check it out here." [0] https://www.theoceancleanup.com/fileadmin/media-archive/Documents/TOC_Feasibility_study_lowres_V2_0.pdf https://www.theoceancleanup.com/fileadmin/media-archive/Docu...
- cultus 8y ago
  The feasibility study was, to be blunt, horseshit. As I stated at the top, they are very good at getting the media to buy their bogus claims. Here are some articles written by actual marine scientists and engineers regarding this project: http://www.deepseanews.com/tag/the-ocean-cleanup/ http://www.deepseanews.com/tag/the-ocean-cleanup/ I'd read this one, which is a quite entertaining criticism of their prototype from an actual oceanographer who is skilled in the field and knows what she is talking about: http://www.deepseanews.com/2016/06/the-ocean-cleanup-deployed-a-prototype-and-i-honestly-have-a-lot-of-questions/ http://www.deepseanews.com/2016/06/the-ocean-cleanup-deploye... As an illustration of their incompetence, the prototype they built was black. This presents a massive navigation hazard, so they'd get their pants sued off if they ever actually put that in the open ocean.
  - rndgermandude 8y ago
    I read the article (2016) you linked, and it's not a good one. She raised some valid questions in the article, tho, most of which actually got an answer from Slat in the comments. I won't pretend I'm informed enough to judge his answers, but Dr Martini herself thanked him for his answers, and didn't ask anything further at that time, which indicates to me that at the time she considered his answer sufficient.
    - cultus 8y ago
      No, they did not get answered by Slat in the comments. Are we reading the same article? Dr. Kim Martini is a very respected oceanographer. While you may not like the tone of the article, she knows what she is talking about. Her concerns were not answered, she just thanked him for replying. Here's a later followup article, so it is clear these concerns have not been resolved. http://www.deepseanews.com/2017/01/what-did-the-boyan-slat-and-the-ocean-cleanup-do-last-summer/ http://www.deepseanews.com/2017/01/what-did-the-boyan-slat-a... Every time this project comes up and actual scientists point out the issues, even people who generally trust scientists seem to be very hostile to criticism of the project.

TeMPOraL 8y ago

> When it comes to ocean cleaning, technological solutions are very attractive, because the population likes to think that they push a button, lay on a sofa, and the oceans get cleaned. Please don't dismiss that. Here's a simple fact about humanity: the more people you need ask for something, the less likely it is that it's going to happen. Coordinating humans at scale is one of the hardest social problems[0]. Technological solutions are attractive precisely because they sidestep the need to get everyone on board. -- [0] - I'm inclined to believe that it's actually the hardest social problem, the root of all other problems.

clay_the_ripper 8y ago

Thanks for linking this, that’s an interesting article. I was not aware of the link between beach cleanup and gyre cleanup. I guess my general perspective is that: 1. I am not arguing that slats solution is the best solution or the only solution. I think that if it drives awareness of the issue and eventually leads us to a better solution, then it’s a success in a backwards kind of way, even if it doesn’t “succeed” 2. Concerns about its potential harm I think are a bit overblown. In real terms, what are we talking about in terms of bycatch and how does that compare percentage wise to “bycatch” from other human activities? (Shipping, commercial fishing, coastal development, climate change?). The impacts from those things are huge, so I doubt that this system is really going to make that big of an impact comparatively. 3. Complaints about the money that could have gone to other better things are also a bit invalid. I’m willing to bet that most of that 20 mil would not have gone to other solutions anyway. So it’s not taking money from other things in reality.

pizza234 8y ago
> 1. I am not arguing that slats solution is the best solution or the only solution. I think that if it drives awareness of the issue and eventually leads us to a better solution, then it’s a success in a backwards kind of way, even if it doesn’t “succeed” Critial positions argue that there are already valid solutions, and that boom-based technologies (and similar) are a lost cause. In this perspective, improvements to the latter technologies are nothing short of quixotic. > I’m willing to bet that most of that 20 mil would not have gone to other solutions anyway. So it’s not taking money from other things in reality. 20 millions, in the form of beach cleaning, would have cleaned a lot of garbage from the ocean[s].

solarengineer 8y ago

Please revisit that linked article. There is an Editorial note there stating: "Editor’s Note: This piece was written in response to a story published in 2013. As of 2014, Boyan Slat has conducted a feasibility study for the Ocean Cleanup Array and published a 530-page report that addresses criticism – check it out here." [0] https://www.theoceancleanup.com/fileadmin/media-archive/Documents/TOC_Feasibility_study_lowres_V2_0.pdf https://www.theoceancleanup.com/fileadmin/media-archive/Docu...

cultus 8y ago
The feasibility study was, to be blunt, horseshit. As I stated at the top, they are very good at getting the media to buy their bogus claims. Here are some articles written by actual marine scientists and engineers regarding this project: http://www.deepseanews.com/tag/the-ocean-cleanup/ http://www.deepseanews.com/tag/the-ocean-cleanup/ I'd read this one, which is a quite entertaining criticism of their prototype from an actual oceanographer who is skilled in the field and knows what she is talking about: http://www.deepseanews.com/2016/06/the-ocean-cleanup-deployed-a-prototype-and-i-honestly-have-a-lot-of-questions/ http://www.deepseanews.com/2016/06/the-ocean-cleanup-deploye... As an illustration of their incompetence, the prototype they built was black. This presents a massive navigation hazard, so they'd get their pants sued off if they ever actually put that in the open ocean.
- rndgermandude 8y ago
  I read the article (2016) you linked, and it's not a good one. She raised some valid questions in the article, tho, most of which actually got an answer from Slat in the comments. I won't pretend I'm informed enough to judge his answers, but Dr Martini herself thanked him for his answers, and didn't ask anything further at that time, which indicates to me that at the time she considered his answer sufficient.
  - cultus 8y ago
    No, they did not get answered by Slat in the comments. Are we reading the same article? Dr. Kim Martini is a very respected oceanographer. While you may not like the tone of the article, she knows what she is talking about. Her concerns were not answered, she just thanked him for replying. Here's a later followup article, so it is clear these concerns have not been resolved. http://www.deepseanews.com/2017/01/what-did-the-boyan-slat-and-the-ocean-cleanup-do-last-summer/ http://www.deepseanews.com/2017/01/what-did-the-boyan-slat-a... Every time this project comes up and actual scientists point out the issues, even people who generally trust scientists seem to be very hostile to criticism of the project.