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If we are playing the "you can't prove that" game, then you also can't prove that your $12 throw away phone isn't always recording, or that you new kitchen coun

If we are playing the "you can't prove that" game, then you also can't prove that your $12 throw away phone isn't always recording, or that you new kitchen countertop doesn't have a recording device embedded in it, or that the maker of whatever device you are using to type that comment isn't breaking a plethora of laws to record everything you type or say or do around that device at any time.

LinuxBender 8y ago
When my throw away phone is transmitting, it gets warm. I also set it next to an amplifier and I can actually hear it bleed into the amp when it chats with the cell site. I can even tell a couple of seconds ahead of time when I am getting a text or a phone call.
- recursive 8y ago
  > When my throw away phone is transmitting, it gets warm Maybe that's just what they want you to think so you don't dig any deeper.
- jedberg 8y ago
  Yeah, but you can also do the same with the Alexa device by watching it transmit data over the wire. If you think watching the transmissions is enough to prove your cell phone isn't recording, then it should be enough to prove the Alexa isn't recording. Or not be sufficient in both cases.
- Klathmon 8y ago
  And all a hypothetical "bug" needs to do is listen for some key phrases, and send a single byte or a few bytes of data across the wire, even through side channels. I can imagine a system that throws an extra byte or 2 on those "chats" with the cell tower, or even abuses the timing that it decides to reach out and check the tower as the method of communication. The actual voice recording and processing tech is small enough that it could be thrown right alongside the actual phone, for pretty cheap, and could run entirely separate from the phone itself, maybe even having its own battery!
kolbe 8y ago
It's reasonable to embed motive into these suspicions. My confidence in iPhone not listening to me is linked to the fact that Apple's ad network is a fraction of the size of Amazon's and Google's, and that to the best of our knowledge, it doesn't require extensive access to personal data to run effectively. Same with GE appliances and countertop makers. One of the most reliable ways for me to believe a company will not harvest my data surreptitiously, now or with TOS updates in the future, is for me to be convinced it's not in their best interest to do so.
- squarefoot 8y ago
  True but... 1- Apple might not be interested in listening to its users but I'm sure other businesses are. Apple users are loyal customers who can pay twice for a piece of technology and some of them will happily spend a night in line to be able to do that. Most advertisers would pay big money to Apple to know who those people are and what they want; that information is like gold. 2- unfortunately advertisers aren't the only entity potentially interested in spying people.
  - giobox 8y ago
    > Most advertisers would pay big money to Apple to know who those people are and what they want; that information is like gold. I think its laughable that this money would be tempting to Apple when they have a business that almost sees customers buying 700-1000 dollar plus devices on an annual or bi-annual subscription, especially when the privacy stance is one of the core pillars of the marketing message. There is likely no commercially viable business model Apple could adopt to sell that data that would be remotely worth risking a 60-70 billion dollar a quarter in revenue money printing machine. That information is practically worthless in the context of iPhone revenue. Should iPhone sales start to falter, this is absolutely something I would consider a concern, but the iPhone has a long way to fall.
cc439 8y ago
At least you can pull the battery out of most "burner" tier dumbphones.
- LinuxBender 8y ago
  My battery falls out if I stare at the phone for too long. This works on goats, too.

LinuxBender 8y ago

When my throw away phone is transmitting, it gets warm. I also set it next to an amplifier and I can actually hear it bleed into the amp when it chats with the cell site. I can even tell a couple of seconds ahead of time when I am getting a text or a phone call.

recursive 8y ago
> When my throw away phone is transmitting, it gets warm Maybe that's just what they want you to think so you don't dig any deeper.
jedberg 8y ago
Yeah, but you can also do the same with the Alexa device by watching it transmit data over the wire. If you think watching the transmissions is enough to prove your cell phone isn't recording, then it should be enough to prove the Alexa isn't recording. Or not be sufficient in both cases.
Klathmon 8y ago
And all a hypothetical "bug" needs to do is listen for some key phrases, and send a single byte or a few bytes of data across the wire, even through side channels. I can imagine a system that throws an extra byte or 2 on those "chats" with the cell tower, or even abuses the timing that it decides to reach out and check the tower as the method of communication. The actual voice recording and processing tech is small enough that it could be thrown right alongside the actual phone, for pretty cheap, and could run entirely separate from the phone itself, maybe even having its own battery!

kolbe 8y ago

It's reasonable to embed motive into these suspicions. My confidence in iPhone not listening to me is linked to the fact that Apple's ad network is a fraction of the size of Amazon's and Google's, and that to the best of our knowledge, it doesn't require extensive access to personal data to run effectively. Same with GE appliances and countertop makers. One of the most reliable ways for me to believe a company will not harvest my data surreptitiously, now or with TOS updates in the future, is for me to be convinced it's not in their best interest to do so.

squarefoot 8y ago
True but... 1- Apple might not be interested in listening to its users but I'm sure other businesses are. Apple users are loyal customers who can pay twice for a piece of technology and some of them will happily spend a night in line to be able to do that. Most advertisers would pay big money to Apple to know who those people are and what they want; that information is like gold. 2- unfortunately advertisers aren't the only entity potentially interested in spying people.
- giobox 8y ago
  > Most advertisers would pay big money to Apple to know who those people are and what they want; that information is like gold. I think its laughable that this money would be tempting to Apple when they have a business that almost sees customers buying 700-1000 dollar plus devices on an annual or bi-annual subscription, especially when the privacy stance is one of the core pillars of the marketing message. There is likely no commercially viable business model Apple could adopt to sell that data that would be remotely worth risking a 60-70 billion dollar a quarter in revenue money printing machine. That information is practically worthless in the context of iPhone revenue. Should iPhone sales start to falter, this is absolutely something I would consider a concern, but the iPhone has a long way to fall.

cc439 8y ago

At least you can pull the battery out of most "burner" tier dumbphones.

LinuxBender 8y ago
My battery falls out if I stare at the phone for too long. This works on goats, too.