5 ms·

Speaking of phones, aren't most people's smartphones already "an always on microphone in their homes"?

berbec 8y ago
and gps and video camera and still camera and network sniffer
tjoff 8y ago
On the vast majority of devices it is not always on. It is not a nitpick. Accidentally recording or even intentionally recording is many orders of magnitude simpler when the device is supposed to always be listening. The fact that a single employee even could make the mistake mentioned in the articles is one example of why. Eventhough it also really does hint that the backend isn't up to par at amazon.
- dlubarov 8y ago
  > On the vast majority of devices it is not always on. Would you consider the device "listening" if a DSP is listening for a particular hotword, but no audio data is being uploaded? I'm pretty sure that's what happens in either case, whether you're using Alexa, Siri, or Google Assistant, and whether it's a "home" device or a phone with hotword detection. I used to work at Google on some related hardware projects. If you're suspicious because the home devices seem much more accurate, that's because they have microphone arrays which can facilitate beamforming.
  - tjoff 8y ago
    Yes. There have also been issues of google devices accidentally recording constantly. And then "accidentally" stream it to the cloud. https://www.gearbrain.com/google-home-mini-recorded-everything-2495445625.html https://www.gearbrain.com/google-home-mini-recorded-everythi... The level of safe guards google et al put in to deal with stuff like this are incomprehensible poor. The accuracy is irrelevant.
- samplesize 8y ago
  Don't the vast majority of iOS and Android phones listen for either a Siri or Google Assistant wake word?
  - tjoff 8y ago
    Not when the device is locked and screen is off.
    - closetohome 8y ago
      Wouldn't be much point to Hey Siri if it didn't work with the screen off :)
      - tjoff 8y ago
        Sure, it seems apple does listen even while screen is off.
kbenson 8y ago
It's an always on microphone (as opposed to an always on device) if hacked or if Google/Apple change something fundamental, but only then. Echo/Dot have an always on microphone by design.
- isostatic 8y ago
  This is key. Yes the CIA or Apple or whoever could conceivably hack/change my phone or laptop to turn on the microphone and camera on, but there's not much you can really do about that as hardware switches seem to have gone out of vogue (I've got tape over my laptop camera like most sane people, but microphone?) However I suspect the majority of iphones have "Hey Siri" enabled, and probably the same with whatever android uses
  - kbenson 8y ago
    > However I suspect the majority of iphones have "Hey Siri" enabled, and probably the same with whatever android uses IIRC, there's been a lot of coverage here about how Apple put in hardware to detect the "hey siri" phrase without having to go to software and bypass any security. That was it can always listen in "dumb" mode and switch to actively listening/recording and decoding request when the right phrase is heard. I'll see if I can find the discussion (and whether I'm correct or not) and update this comment with whatever the case is. Edit: From what I've been able to find without doing a deep dive, is that in general Apple notes that only local pattern matching is done on the "hey siri" patter, and after triggered then it may utilize other resources (such as online maybe), but prior to that nothing is recorded.[1] In conjunciton with their newer laptop hardware and the new T2 security chip, I think since the Chip handles the "hey siri" matching, it might not actually hit regular OS software processes until it does match. It's not entirely clear from what I skimmed.[2] From the docs on the T2 chip, it looks to be in the newer laptop lineup only.[3] I'm not sure if there's an equivalent bit of hardware in the phones or not, or an older iteration that has the same features in question on older laptops. 1: https://techcrunch.com/2015/09/11/apple-addresses-privacy-questions-about-hey-siri-and-live-photo-features/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/09/11/apple-addresses-privacy-qu... 2: https://www.idownloadblog.com/2018/07/12/apple-t2-hey-siri-mac/ https://www.idownloadblog.com/2018/07/12/apple-t2-hey-siri-m... 3: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862

and gps and video camera and still camera and network sniffer

On the vast majority of devices it is not always on. It is not a nitpick. Accidentally recording or even intentionally recording is many orders of magnitude simpler when the device is supposed to always be listening. The fact that a single employee even could make the mistake mentioned in the articles is one example of why. Eventhough it also really does hint that the backend isn't up to par at amazon.

dlubarov 8y ago
> On the vast majority of devices it is not always on. Would you consider the device "listening" if a DSP is listening for a particular hotword, but no audio data is being uploaded? I'm pretty sure that's what happens in either case, whether you're using Alexa, Siri, or Google Assistant, and whether it's a "home" device or a phone with hotword detection. I used to work at Google on some related hardware projects. If you're suspicious because the home devices seem much more accurate, that's because they have microphone arrays which can facilitate beamforming.
- tjoff 8y ago
  Yes. There have also been issues of google devices accidentally recording constantly. And then "accidentally" stream it to the cloud. https://www.gearbrain.com/google-home-mini-recorded-everything-2495445625.html https://www.gearbrain.com/google-home-mini-recorded-everythi... The level of safe guards google et al put in to deal with stuff like this are incomprehensible poor. The accuracy is irrelevant.
samplesize 8y ago
Don't the vast majority of iOS and Android phones listen for either a Siri or Google Assistant wake word?
- tjoff 8y ago
  Not when the device is locked and screen is off.
  - closetohome 8y ago
    Wouldn't be much point to Hey Siri if it didn't work with the screen off :)
    - tjoff 8y ago
      Sure, it seems apple does listen even while screen is off.

kbenson 8y ago

It's an always on microphone (as opposed to an always on device) if hacked or if Google/Apple change something fundamental, but only then. Echo/Dot have an always on microphone by design.

isostatic 8y ago
This is key. Yes the CIA or Apple or whoever could conceivably hack/change my phone or laptop to turn on the microphone and camera on, but there's not much you can really do about that as hardware switches seem to have gone out of vogue (I've got tape over my laptop camera like most sane people, but microphone?) However I suspect the majority of iphones have "Hey Siri" enabled, and probably the same with whatever android uses
- kbenson 8y ago
  > However I suspect the majority of iphones have "Hey Siri" enabled, and probably the same with whatever android uses IIRC, there's been a lot of coverage here about how Apple put in hardware to detect the "hey siri" phrase without having to go to software and bypass any security. That was it can always listen in "dumb" mode and switch to actively listening/recording and decoding request when the right phrase is heard. I'll see if I can find the discussion (and whether I'm correct or not) and update this comment with whatever the case is. Edit: From what I've been able to find without doing a deep dive, is that in general Apple notes that only local pattern matching is done on the "hey siri" patter, and after triggered then it may utilize other resources (such as online maybe), but prior to that nothing is recorded.[1] In conjunciton with their newer laptop hardware and the new T2 security chip, I think since the Chip handles the "hey siri" matching, it might not actually hit regular OS software processes until it does match. It's not entirely clear from what I skimmed.[2] From the docs on the T2 chip, it looks to be in the newer laptop lineup only.[3] I'm not sure if there's an equivalent bit of hardware in the phones or not, or an older iteration that has the same features in question on older laptops. 1: https://techcrunch.com/2015/09/11/apple-addresses-privacy-questions-about-hey-siri-and-live-photo-features/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/09/11/apple-addresses-privacy-qu... 2: https://www.idownloadblog.com/2018/07/12/apple-t2-hey-siri-mac/ https://www.idownloadblog.com/2018/07/12/apple-t2-hey-siri-m... 3: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862