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> It really is about Achilles' acts and their consequences, not about his mind. I don't understand that. All his actions are driven by his emotions. The first

by goto11 8y ago

> It really is about Achilles' acts and their consequences, not about his mind. I don't understand that. All his actions are driven by his emotions. The first line is "Sing, Goddess, of Achilles' rage" (In the original Greek "rage" is literally the first word). So obviously the mind and emotions of Achilles is the absolute center of the story, driving all the action.

the_af 8y ago
Well, I don't speak Greek and understand the historical meaning of Greek terms even less, but I think Jaynes' thesis is that every term we now associate with the mind and with inner emotions was meant in the Illiad to be more like a physical or even an external command of "the Gods" (see his discussion of psyche and thumos). That is, while it's now obvious to us these were emotions, the authors of the Illiad didn't perceive them as such -- or so I understand Jaynes argued -- and instead they thought they were either physical things (much like a stomach ache) or a command of "the Gods". If you speak Greek, what's the exact term for "rage" as written in the Illiad? ---- edit: ok, found it. Jaynes claims this: "Even the poem itself is not wrought by men in our sense. Its first three words are Menin aedie Thea, 'Of wrath sing, O Goddess!' And the entire epic which follows is the song of the goddess which the entranced bard 'heard' and chanted to his iron-age listeners among the ruins of Agamemnon's world." I find it a bit disappointing because even if the singer didn't ascribe feelings to men, he must at least understand the meaning of "wrath" itself. And it seems to me it must be hard to understand this emotion unless you can feel it.
the_af 8y ago
You mention songs in another of your posts. Jaynes also had something interesting to say about singing. If I remember correctly, Jaynes argues that singing is produced by the same side of the brain that produced the "voices of the Gods" (and also, the voices in schizophrenic patients), and not the same side that produces speech. To him it's no surprise the ancient forms of storytelling were actually songs. Again, I must add the disclaimer that I don't know whether Jaynes was correct. I suspect he wasn't. But he built such a fascinating house of cards with his theory...

by goto11 8y ago

the_af 8y ago

Well, I don't speak Greek and understand the historical meaning of Greek terms even less, but I think Jaynes' thesis is that every term we now associate with the mind and with inner emotions was meant in the Illiad to be more like a physical or even an external command of "the Gods" (see his discussion of psyche and thumos). That is, while it's now obvious to us these were emotions, the authors of the Illiad didn't perceive them as such -- or so I understand Jaynes argued -- and instead they thought they were either physical things (much like a stomach ache) or a command of "the Gods". If you speak Greek, what's the exact term for "rage" as written in the Illiad? ---- edit: ok, found it. Jaynes claims this: "Even the poem itself is not wrought by men in our sense. Its first three words are Menin aedie Thea, 'Of wrath sing, O Goddess!' And the entire epic which follows is the song of the goddess which the entranced bard 'heard' and chanted to his iron-age listeners among the ruins of Agamemnon's world." I find it a bit disappointing because even if the singer didn't ascribe feelings to men, he must at least understand the meaning of "wrath" itself. And it seems to me it must be hard to understand this emotion unless you can feel it.

the_af 8y ago

You mention songs in another of your posts. Jaynes also had something interesting to say about singing. If I remember correctly, Jaynes argues that singing is produced by the same side of the brain that produced the "voices of the Gods" (and also, the voices in schizophrenic patients), and not the same side that produces speech. To him it's no surprise the ancient forms of storytelling were actually songs. Again, I must add the disclaimer that I don't know whether Jaynes was correct. I suspect he wasn't. But he built such a fascinating house of cards with his theory...