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>I'm not convinced that people intrinsically "care" about migration Lots of people do. For many people it genuinely is about maintaining the nations their anc

>I'm not convinced that people intrinsically "care" about migration Lots of people do. For many people it genuinely is about maintaining the nations their ancestors spent hundreds of generations creating. Nations, not states. Somalians can never be part of the German nation, no matter how long they have citizenship in the state called Germany. You can't spend decades telling white people how evil colonialism was, and then say "by the way you have to allow your native land to be colonized and if you say no you are an evil racist and we'll throw you in jail". People have a natural instinct for fairness.

vidarh 8y ago
Your idea of nations "their ancestors spent hundreds of generations creating is historical fiction. A hundred generations is around 2500 years. Look at some maps of migrations in Europe over the last 2500 years, and the idea of people mostly staying put over that time frame is demolished. Modern English is a West Germanic language, coming from the Germanic tribes that pushed aside the Celts, for example. The reason it doesn't sound more like Dutch and German being the Norman invasion and subsequent exchange with the French. Modern German on the other hand isn't closer to Dutch or Danish than it is because High German from the South has supplanted the Low German native to Northern Germany, parts of the Netherlands and Southern Denmark as political shifted in the last 100-200 years. And from the UK at least, it is clear that the people who care most are the people who have the least experience with it. It's about fear, where origin is a proxy.
- agsdfgsd 8y ago
  >the idea of people mostly staying put over that time frame is demolished. That idea was never put forward. Again, a nation is a people. >It's about fear, where origin is a proxy. It seems rather arrogant to tell other people what their beliefs are and what they are about. Would you tell Indians that they were evil racists for being "afraid" of the British invaders? That they just don't have enough experience, and you, being so much more wise and experienced know better than they do, and should be allowed to dictate to them who is allowed in their country?
  - vidarh 8y ago
    > That idea was never put forward. Again, a nation is a people. "A nation is a people" does not say anything. It's a totally empty phrase given that the notion of what makes up "a people" is totally fluid, and changes dramatically over time, as I pointed out. You won't find anyone in England who consider themselves Germans, for example, but most of them are descendants predominantly of Germanic tribes. And despite "British" as an identity is even more of a fabrication you'll find plenty of people who see no distinction between English and Scottish people, for example And it changes rapidly: Even surveys of what nationality people in the UK consider themselves to have shows massive shifts over even the last 30-40 years. These things can not be measured meaningfully in "hundreds of generations" - they often change dramatically in as little of 1-2 generations. The irony of what one finds in such surveys is that contrary to your earlier attempt to paint this as something lasting, families of recent immigrants to the UK tend to show much stronger feelings of national belonging than "ethnic British" people, and are largely accepted as British. Unsurprisingly given how much of the culture of many of these immigrants have become an integral part of British culture. > It seems rather arrogant to tell other people what their beliefs are and what they are about. Not when there is plenty of evidence. > Would you tell Indians that they were evil racists for being "afraid" of the British invaders? I wouldn't tell anyone they're racist for being afraid of people who are actually invading and taking their country. That you even try to equate this with immigration says enough. > dictate to them who is allowed in their country? You're the one assuming I am suggesting I should have a right to dictate to them. People are free to be xenophobes and bigots if they wish. That does not make them any less so, and I'm equally free to call them out on it. > being so much more wise and experienced know better than they do In terms of the UK for example, as I pointed out, it is not at all about my experience. It's about the fact that anti-immigration sentiments linked to opposition to the EU was strongest in the areas where people have the least personal experience with it, and in fact opposition to the EU in general was largest in areas with the least immigration. If they had actual experience of it, I'd have slightly more sympathy for their position, but most of this xenophobia is linked to lack of experience. Living in London, as an immigrant, the vast majority of British people I meet are equally exasperated over the xenophobia in "Middle England", because most people here know immigrants, work with immigrants, or are in relationships with immigrants.
pjc50 8y ago
It was attempts to align the borders of Germany the state with the German-speaking areas of Europe that got us into this mess, with the annexation of the Sudetenland.
- agsdfgsd 8y ago
  I don't follow. How did that get us "into this mess"? Maybe I am confused about what exactly you consider to be "this mess".
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  The borders among 'German speaking people' have been nutbars since time immemorial, frankly the concept of a fairly federalized Germany is a very, very new thing in history.

vidarh 8y ago

Your idea of nations "their ancestors spent hundreds of generations creating is historical fiction. A hundred generations is around 2500 years. Look at some maps of migrations in Europe over the last 2500 years, and the idea of people mostly staying put over that time frame is demolished. Modern English is a West Germanic language, coming from the Germanic tribes that pushed aside the Celts, for example. The reason it doesn't sound more like Dutch and German being the Norman invasion and subsequent exchange with the French. Modern German on the other hand isn't closer to Dutch or Danish than it is because High German from the South has supplanted the Low German native to Northern Germany, parts of the Netherlands and Southern Denmark as political shifted in the last 100-200 years. And from the UK at least, it is clear that the people who care most are the people who have the least experience with it. It's about fear, where origin is a proxy.

agsdfgsd 8y ago
>the idea of people mostly staying put over that time frame is demolished. That idea was never put forward. Again, a nation is a people. >It's about fear, where origin is a proxy. It seems rather arrogant to tell other people what their beliefs are and what they are about. Would you tell Indians that they were evil racists for being "afraid" of the British invaders? That they just don't have enough experience, and you, being so much more wise and experienced know better than they do, and should be allowed to dictate to them who is allowed in their country?
- vidarh 8y ago
  > That idea was never put forward. Again, a nation is a people. "A nation is a people" does not say anything. It's a totally empty phrase given that the notion of what makes up "a people" is totally fluid, and changes dramatically over time, as I pointed out. You won't find anyone in England who consider themselves Germans, for example, but most of them are descendants predominantly of Germanic tribes. And despite "British" as an identity is even more of a fabrication you'll find plenty of people who see no distinction between English and Scottish people, for example And it changes rapidly: Even surveys of what nationality people in the UK consider themselves to have shows massive shifts over even the last 30-40 years. These things can not be measured meaningfully in "hundreds of generations" - they often change dramatically in as little of 1-2 generations. The irony of what one finds in such surveys is that contrary to your earlier attempt to paint this as something lasting, families of recent immigrants to the UK tend to show much stronger feelings of national belonging than "ethnic British" people, and are largely accepted as British. Unsurprisingly given how much of the culture of many of these immigrants have become an integral part of British culture. > It seems rather arrogant to tell other people what their beliefs are and what they are about. Not when there is plenty of evidence. > Would you tell Indians that they were evil racists for being "afraid" of the British invaders? I wouldn't tell anyone they're racist for being afraid of people who are actually invading and taking their country. That you even try to equate this with immigration says enough. > dictate to them who is allowed in their country? You're the one assuming I am suggesting I should have a right to dictate to them. People are free to be xenophobes and bigots if they wish. That does not make them any less so, and I'm equally free to call them out on it. > being so much more wise and experienced know better than they do In terms of the UK for example, as I pointed out, it is not at all about my experience. It's about the fact that anti-immigration sentiments linked to opposition to the EU was strongest in the areas where people have the least personal experience with it, and in fact opposition to the EU in general was largest in areas with the least immigration. If they had actual experience of it, I'd have slightly more sympathy for their position, but most of this xenophobia is linked to lack of experience. Living in London, as an immigrant, the vast majority of British people I meet are equally exasperated over the xenophobia in "Middle England", because most people here know immigrants, work with immigrants, or are in relationships with immigrants.

pjc50 8y ago

It was attempts to align the borders of Germany the state with the German-speaking areas of Europe that got us into this mess, with the annexation of the Sudetenland.

agsdfgsd 8y ago
I don't follow. How did that get us "into this mess"? Maybe I am confused about what exactly you consider to be "this mess".
sonnyblarney 8y ago
The borders among 'German speaking people' have been nutbars since time immemorial, frankly the concept of a fairly federalized Germany is a very, very new thing in history.