4 ms·

Plural of anecdote is not data, and certainly not when you are insinuating "indian managers" in particular to be worse than others and "indians" in particular c

Plural of anecdote is not data, and certainly not when you are insinuating "indian managers" in particular to be worse than others and "indians" in particular creating toxic work environment.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
No, even a singular anecdote is data. Having worked for a 99% Indian/Pakistani company in tech myself, I can confirm that 'it's really different'. We were treated well, but when we were not ... it was in odd ways. And can confirm salaries were generally lower as so many people were in visa-limbo or migration situations, the company used it to it's advantage. It was a slide on the deck to investors. Which is maybe not so nice, but the logic makes sense: company of largely newcomers, lead by newcomers, uses cultural aspect of migration sensitivity to their advantage. Also, curiously, though the notion of Indians and Pakistanis coming together to form a successful enterprise is amazing and progressive ... a lot of the 'class based' issues were imported as well. The execs were all from elite Indian Subcontinent families.
- zozbot123 8y ago
  Not sure why you would expect a "company of largely newcomers, lead by newcomers" to pay higher than newcomer-salary. At the end of the day, everyone gets what they pay for.
- riskneutral 8y ago
  I don’t think hiring based on ethnicity is a legal investment strategy in Canada. Even if it was written down by some idiots on a slide.
  - deanmoriarty 8y ago
    Not ethnicity, the slide would say more or less "we have a deep network of foreigners who are thrilled to come here and work for very competitive salaries, so our burning rate will be lower than the competition". I've seen this happen also in Silicon Valley, I've personally participated in conversations with startup founders quoting their ability to tap into cheap labor under the form of "talented, naive and visa-handcuffed immigrants" a major competitive advantage.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    Oh, it absolutely is everywhere. (FYI labour arbitrage has been going on for thousands of years, it's a thing). Not so much 'ethnicity' but 'visa leverage'. Sun Microsystems and others faced scrutiny during layoffs for protecting H1Bs over American workers. Given the leverage that companies have, they often pay less. Also - foreign workers will generally have a lower salary requirement if they come from poorer countries. This is also the case in Alberta Oil fields where investors try to get temp permit visas for foreign workers (China, Philipines) because hiring Canadians is brutally expensive. It becomes de-facto ethnic because the workers tend to come from specific regions.
- truncate 8y ago
  Ok, I can agree to the fact that companies may take advantage of immigrants like others have suggested. However, what the original comment said was specifically against Indians which sounds more like a racial bias (and for some reason it sounds more so, if there isn't any salary discrimination happening in company for immigrants). Yes, large portions of tech immigrants are Indians, but not all immigrants are Indians. This is typical correlation doesn't imply causation mistake. Considering, a huge majority of Indians in tech it shouldn't be less common than otherwise. Doesn't mean Indians managers are mostly bad. The ones I had in US were great, and includes the best I've had.

Plural of anecdote is not data, and certainly not when you are insinuating "indian managers" in particular to be worse than others and "indians" in particular creating toxic work environment.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

No, even a singular anecdote is data. Having worked for a 99% Indian/Pakistani company in tech myself, I can confirm that 'it's really different'. We were treated well, but when we were not ... it was in odd ways. And can confirm salaries were generally lower as so many people were in visa-limbo or migration situations, the company used it to it's advantage. It was a slide on the deck to investors. Which is maybe not so nice, but the logic makes sense: company of largely newcomers, lead by newcomers, uses cultural aspect of migration sensitivity to their advantage. Also, curiously, though the notion of Indians and Pakistanis coming together to form a successful enterprise is amazing and progressive ... a lot of the 'class based' issues were imported as well. The execs were all from elite Indian Subcontinent families.

zozbot123 8y ago
Not sure why you would expect a "company of largely newcomers, lead by newcomers" to pay higher than newcomer-salary. At the end of the day, everyone gets what they pay for.
riskneutral 8y ago
I don’t think hiring based on ethnicity is a legal investment strategy in Canada. Even if it was written down by some idiots on a slide.
- deanmoriarty 8y ago
  Not ethnicity, the slide would say more or less "we have a deep network of foreigners who are thrilled to come here and work for very competitive salaries, so our burning rate will be lower than the competition". I've seen this happen also in Silicon Valley, I've personally participated in conversations with startup founders quoting their ability to tap into cheap labor under the form of "talented, naive and visa-handcuffed immigrants" a major competitive advantage.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Oh, it absolutely is everywhere. (FYI labour arbitrage has been going on for thousands of years, it's a thing). Not so much 'ethnicity' but 'visa leverage'. Sun Microsystems and others faced scrutiny during layoffs for protecting H1Bs over American workers. Given the leverage that companies have, they often pay less. Also - foreign workers will generally have a lower salary requirement if they come from poorer countries. This is also the case in Alberta Oil fields where investors try to get temp permit visas for foreign workers (China, Philipines) because hiring Canadians is brutally expensive. It becomes de-facto ethnic because the workers tend to come from specific regions.
truncate 8y ago
Ok, I can agree to the fact that companies may take advantage of immigrants like others have suggested. However, what the original comment said was specifically against Indians which sounds more like a racial bias (and for some reason it sounds more so, if there isn't any salary discrimination happening in company for immigrants). Yes, large portions of tech immigrants are Indians, but not all immigrants are Indians. This is typical correlation doesn't imply causation mistake. Considering, a huge majority of Indians in tech it shouldn't be less common than otherwise. Doesn't mean Indians managers are mostly bad. The ones I had in US were great, and includes the best I've had.