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Storing energy as hydrogen is much less efficient than storing energy in batteries. The channel Real Engineering explains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzF

by nayuki 8y ago

Storing energy as hydrogen is much less efficient than storing energy in batteries. The channel Real Engineering explains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPheEg-K2qc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPheEg-K2qc

clouddrover 8y ago
But on the plus side, hydrogen fuel cell cars refuel faster than battery electrics. The Hyundai Nexo refuels in 5 minutes for a range of 600+ KMs: https://www.hyundai.de/Modelle/NEXO.html https://www.hyundai.de/Modelle/NEXO.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Nexo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Nexo That said, Porsche and BMW are working on a fast charger than can deliver 100km of range in 3 minutes, 80% charge in 15 minutes: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-13/bmw-porsche-boast-three-minute-charging-jolt-for-electric-cars https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-13/bmw-porsc... I think battery electrics will win out over hydrogen fuel cell cars in the long run just because more of the infrastructure is already there and it's easier to build out fast charger stations than hydrogen fueling stations. But hydrogen will be part of the mix, maybe more for heavy vehicles than cars.
- gwbas1c 8y ago
  Time to charge isn't as important as you think. It's more important to have chargers where you're going. This way you don't have to go out of your way to fuel. For example, imagine if you could charge your car at the grocery store, at a restaurant, at the amusement park, parking garage by a concert, ect, ect.
  - clouddrover 8y ago
    I never said it was ultra-important. I'm just saying faster chargers are eroding a benefit hydrogen fuel cell cars have over battery electrics.
- petre 8y ago
  Battery performance also degrades on time and in rare cases your car can go up flames. A tank stays a tank, you only replace the fuel. If the fuel is compressed hydrogen you're essentially transporting a bomb in the car. Hydrogen also burns with an invisible flame which makes matters worse. If this stuff really exists and is not flamable, then it has some advantages over both batteries and compressed hydrogen.
  - clouddrover 8y ago
    Yes, but don't underestimate battery development. Semisolid and solid state batteries may become practical options for EVs. 24M, for example, claim a semisolid battery design that's 40% cheaper to produce with better energy density, better safety, and a longer duty cycle than conventional batteries: http://24-m.com/ http://24-m.com/ https://insideevs.com/24m-raises-22-million-semi-solid-state-battery/ https://insideevs.com/24m-raises-22-million-semi-solid-state... We'll have to see how they go, but if it does work as claimed then it'll be a significant step forward for EVs.
    - petre 8y ago
      It's mostly claims and organizations raising money for battery reasearch. I've seen lots of such claims for liquid electrolyte zinc or aliminium based flow batteries, but so far little seems to have materialized. Also battery performance degrades drastically at low temperature, so battery powered EVs are not such a great option in chillier areas. So far we are still running on battery tech first developed in the '70s with the first battery developed in the early '90s.
      - clouddrover 8y ago
        > It's just claims and organizations raising money for battery reasearch. BMW has partnered with Solid Power to develop solid state batteries for their vehicles. It doesn't mean they'll succeed but BMW thinks Solid Power is worth the investment of time and money: https://companyweek.com/company-profile/solid-power https://companyweek.com/company-profile/solid-power > Also battery performance degrades drastically at low temperature Which is an advantage of solid state batteries. Here's some of Toyota's research: https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/new-lithium-battery-ditches-solvents-reaches-supercapacitor-rates/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/new-lithium-battery-... It's more than just claims. Someone will develop a viable solid state battery eventually.

by nayuki 8y ago

clouddrover 8y ago

But on the plus side, hydrogen fuel cell cars refuel faster than battery electrics. The Hyundai Nexo refuels in 5 minutes for a range of 600+ KMs: https://www.hyundai.de/Modelle/NEXO.html https://www.hyundai.de/Modelle/NEXO.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Nexo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Nexo That said, Porsche and BMW are working on a fast charger than can deliver 100km of range in 3 minutes, 80% charge in 15 minutes: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-13/bmw-porsche-boast-three-minute-charging-jolt-for-electric-cars https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-13/bmw-porsc... I think battery electrics will win out over hydrogen fuel cell cars in the long run just because more of the infrastructure is already there and it's easier to build out fast charger stations than hydrogen fueling stations. But hydrogen will be part of the mix, maybe more for heavy vehicles than cars.

gwbas1c 8y ago
Time to charge isn't as important as you think. It's more important to have chargers where you're going. This way you don't have to go out of your way to fuel. For example, imagine if you could charge your car at the grocery store, at a restaurant, at the amusement park, parking garage by a concert, ect, ect.
- clouddrover 8y ago
  I never said it was ultra-important. I'm just saying faster chargers are eroding a benefit hydrogen fuel cell cars have over battery electrics.
petre 8y ago
Battery performance also degrades on time and in rare cases your car can go up flames. A tank stays a tank, you only replace the fuel. If the fuel is compressed hydrogen you're essentially transporting a bomb in the car. Hydrogen also burns with an invisible flame which makes matters worse. If this stuff really exists and is not flamable, then it has some advantages over both batteries and compressed hydrogen.
- clouddrover 8y ago
  Yes, but don't underestimate battery development. Semisolid and solid state batteries may become practical options for EVs. 24M, for example, claim a semisolid battery design that's 40% cheaper to produce with better energy density, better safety, and a longer duty cycle than conventional batteries: http://24-m.com/ http://24-m.com/ https://insideevs.com/24m-raises-22-million-semi-solid-state-battery/ https://insideevs.com/24m-raises-22-million-semi-solid-state... We'll have to see how they go, but if it does work as claimed then it'll be a significant step forward for EVs.
  - petre 8y ago
    It's mostly claims and organizations raising money for battery reasearch. I've seen lots of such claims for liquid electrolyte zinc or aliminium based flow batteries, but so far little seems to have materialized. Also battery performance degrades drastically at low temperature, so battery powered EVs are not such a great option in chillier areas. So far we are still running on battery tech first developed in the '70s with the first battery developed in the early '90s.
    - clouddrover 8y ago
      > It's just claims and organizations raising money for battery reasearch. BMW has partnered with Solid Power to develop solid state batteries for their vehicles. It doesn't mean they'll succeed but BMW thinks Solid Power is worth the investment of time and money: https://companyweek.com/company-profile/solid-power https://companyweek.com/company-profile/solid-power > Also battery performance degrades drastically at low temperature Which is an advantage of solid state batteries. Here's some of Toyota's research: https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/new-lithium-battery-ditches-solvents-reaches-supercapacitor-rates/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/new-lithium-battery-... It's more than just claims. Someone will develop a viable solid state battery eventually.