6 ms·

Er, people have been running Linux on Surfaces for years. With decent UX for a while as well, as I understand it.

david-cako 8y ago
see Stallman’s take on modern computers and phones; virtually impossible to distance yourself from proprietary firmware and BIOS
- nikofeyn 8y ago
  i just don't understand how his take is at all relevant in modern times. i am sure he uses microwaves, refrigerators, homes, vehicles, etc. on a daily if not hourly basis that have non-free software and firmware. what does he or anyone even do with open source, free firmware?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - nostalgiac 8y ago
    > As for microwave ovens and other appliances, if updating software is not a normal part of use of the device, then it is not a computer. In that case, I think the user need not take cognizance of whether the device contains a processor and software, or is built some other way. However, if it has an "update firmware" button, that means installing different software is a normal part of use, so it is a computer. https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
    - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
      That... Doesn't make sense. What if the "button" (probably a jumper or connector on the motherboard) isn't normally accessible to the end user, like a lot of embedded devices? If it has a CPU, ROM, RAM and runs code it's a computer!
  - opan 8y ago
    I think the extreme stance still makes sense, as some things still meet all the criteria. You can get an old ThinkPad or an Asus C201 Chromebook and run libreboot on it with a GNU/Linux distro using no blobs. These aren't bleeding edge, they're not perfect, and they don't come totally free out of the box, but they show that this level of freedom is possible. I think that's enough for us to want to strive for it.
jclay 8y ago
But now you can do it with opensource firmware.
codemusings 8y ago
With various degrees of success [1]. Open sourcing the firmware could improve things drastically. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
colemickens 8y ago
I don't understand this comment chain, replies, patterns of downvotes at all. Nothing, anywhere, indicates that Project Mu has anything to do with "other OSes" on Surface devices. And the grandparent comment is a direct implication that Project Mu would/will be critical to Linux on Surface. This isn't to say that this is not neat, from what I've heard about TianoCore and the codebase, but linking this to Linux on Surface seems completely invented and just a weird comment given that it already works pretty well, minus missing drivers that will still be missing even with an OSS UEFI core.

see Stallman’s take on modern computers and phones; virtually impossible to distance yourself from proprietary firmware and BIOS

nikofeyn 8y ago
i just don't understand how his take is at all relevant in modern times. i am sure he uses microwaves, refrigerators, homes, vehicles, etc. on a daily if not hourly basis that have non-free software and firmware. what does he or anyone even do with open source, free firmware?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- nostalgiac 8y ago
  > As for microwave ovens and other appliances, if updating software is not a normal part of use of the device, then it is not a computer. In that case, I think the user need not take cognizance of whether the device contains a processor and software, or is built some other way. However, if it has an "update firmware" button, that means installing different software is a normal part of use, so it is a computer. https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
  - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
    That... Doesn't make sense. What if the "button" (probably a jumper or connector on the motherboard) isn't normally accessible to the end user, like a lot of embedded devices? If it has a CPU, ROM, RAM and runs code it's a computer!
- opan 8y ago
  I think the extreme stance still makes sense, as some things still meet all the criteria. You can get an old ThinkPad or an Asus C201 Chromebook and run libreboot on it with a GNU/Linux distro using no blobs. These aren't bleeding edge, they're not perfect, and they don't come totally free out of the box, but they show that this level of freedom is possible. I think that's enough for us to want to strive for it.

jclay 8y ago

But now you can do it with opensource firmware.

codemusings 8y ago

With various degrees of success [1]. Open sourcing the firmware could improve things drastically. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/current_state_of_surfaceseries_devices/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/7kazwp/curren...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

colemickens 8y ago

I don't understand this comment chain, replies, patterns of downvotes at all. Nothing, anywhere, indicates that Project Mu has anything to do with "other OSes" on Surface devices. And the grandparent comment is a direct implication that Project Mu would/will be critical to Linux on Surface. This isn't to say that this is not neat, from what I've heard about TianoCore and the codebase, but linking this to Linux on Surface seems completely invented and just a weird comment given that it already works pretty well, minus missing drivers that will still be missing even with an OSS UEFI core.