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I disagree. If anything, it shows that when average students are given top-notch instructors and surrounded by highly motivated peers, those average students ra

I disagree. If anything, it shows that when average students are given top-notch instructors and surrounded by highly motivated peers, those average students raise their game. The exact same thing happens in amateur sports and is why athletes with any hope of making it to the Olympics/pro will go to great lengths to find the best coaches and best teams to play on.

fromthestart 8y ago
You think the average person is capable of Olympic feats simply with training and dedication?
- DoubleCribble 8y ago
  I think if you want to be the best, you've got to train with the best. Success has a positive feedback loop.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    Can you answer the question you were asked please? Do you think the average person is capable of qualifying for the Olympics?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - Qworg 8y ago
      I do, since it has been done. Here's a reasonable example: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2018/02/20/587356461/how-an-average-american-skier-managed-to-scheme-her-way-into-the-olympics https://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2018/02/20/587356461/h...
      - barry-cotter 8y ago
        That’s quite the non-central example. Gamesmanship, cheating and being the only San Marinan or Guamian able and willing to represent their country in some sport excepted do you think a normal person is capable of becoming conpetitive at an élite level in most sports? It didn’t work for Dan McLaughlin when he tried to go from nothing to pro in golf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_McLaughlin_(golfer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_McLaughlin_(golfer) http://thedanplan.com/ http://thedanplan.com/
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - jgamman 8y ago
      Geena Davis (actress) picked up archery at 41 and got to 24th in the US. Resources count since she _started_ with an Olympic coach. Imagine if she had the access and desire at 14... https://www.archery360.com/2017/05/26/celeb-world-class-archer-now-campaigns-womens-rights/ https://www.archery360.com/2017/05/26/celeb-world-class-arch...
    - aklemm 8y ago
      The answer you were given is perfectly reasonable. It is clear and on point and even illustrates a little bit why your question is too narrow or perhaps unfair.
    - DoubleCribble 8y ago
      Have you ever watched the Olympics? Modest talents appear in the Olympics ALL. THE. TIME. Here are just a few off the top of my head: - Liz Swaney, the woman who may have singlehandedly gotten the Olympic Committee to add a minimum acceptable skill level qualification (TBD) [0] - Did you happen to catch any of the men's curling in PyeongChang? [1] - And who could forget the inspiration behind _Cool Runnings_? [2] [0]https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/19/elizabeth-swaney-olympic-halfpipe-contest/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/19/elizabeth-swaney-olym... [1]http://time.com/5173987/usa-mens-curling-gold-medal/ http://time.com/5173987/usa-mens-curling-gold-medal/ [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Runnings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Runnings
- hnzix 8y ago
  Graduating from an Ivy League college is hardly an Olympic feat. Don't get stuck on the analogy.
  - fromthestart 8y ago
    The point is that the range of human achievement is graduated, and even if we are all given equal abilities and have equal drives, we will not all see equal success. This is a dangerous fallacy. It's obvious when you look at people and conclude from, say, physical stature, that a person is exceedingly unlikely to succeed as a professional linebacker. But somehow we do not even allow for the possibility of our cognitive limits being set by a combination of our genes and our experiences.
- goliatone 8y ago
  I would look at it the other way around, it is far more likely that if you train and compete with the best you will reach closer to your full potential than if you train and compete in “minor” leagues (thinking about sports, specifically soccer). So, I think the OPs point was, if you could compare one individual with themselves they would perform/grow better in an environment with more performing peers. I would add, not everyone with the “raw talent” can deal with the stress and pressure of competitive environments the same way.
- pjc50 8y ago
  We have to be quite careful about what we mean here, because if the success criterion is "be in the top 3 after competing with everyone else" and we enter a million "uplifted" ordinary people in the competition, only 3 of them are going to win. If we make a more modest criterion like "be within x% of the victor" or more interestingly "beat the records from an older olympics", then it gets more doable. Look at how many people can run a four minute mile now, for example. > simply with training and dedication The training is expensive and takes over your entire life, and the dedication required is really the thing people empathise with Olympic athletes for. In some sense the real achievement is not giving up.
TomMckenny 8y ago
If anyone can be so uplifted then the selection criterion, which claims to be on brains, should just be a lottery. And more significantly, currently would be astoundingly unjust in that it chooses so heavily from the most advantaged branch of society.

fromthestart 8y ago

You think the average person is capable of Olympic feats simply with training and dedication?

DoubleCribble 8y ago
I think if you want to be the best, you've got to train with the best. Success has a positive feedback loop.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Can you answer the question you were asked please? Do you think the average person is capable of qualifying for the Olympics?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Qworg 8y ago
    I do, since it has been done. Here's a reasonable example: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2018/02/20/587356461/how-an-average-american-skier-managed-to-scheme-her-way-into-the-olympics https://www.npr.org/sections/thetorch/2018/02/20/587356461/h...
    - barry-cotter 8y ago
      That’s quite the non-central example. Gamesmanship, cheating and being the only San Marinan or Guamian able and willing to represent their country in some sport excepted do you think a normal person is capable of becoming conpetitive at an élite level in most sports? It didn’t work for Dan McLaughlin when he tried to go from nothing to pro in golf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_McLaughlin_(golfer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_McLaughlin_(golfer) http://thedanplan.com/ http://thedanplan.com/
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - jgamman 8y ago
    Geena Davis (actress) picked up archery at 41 and got to 24th in the US. Resources count since she _started_ with an Olympic coach. Imagine if she had the access and desire at 14... https://www.archery360.com/2017/05/26/celeb-world-class-archer-now-campaigns-womens-rights/ https://www.archery360.com/2017/05/26/celeb-world-class-arch...
  - aklemm 8y ago
    The answer you were given is perfectly reasonable. It is clear and on point and even illustrates a little bit why your question is too narrow or perhaps unfair.
  - DoubleCribble 8y ago
    Have you ever watched the Olympics? Modest talents appear in the Olympics ALL. THE. TIME. Here are just a few off the top of my head: - Liz Swaney, the woman who may have singlehandedly gotten the Olympic Committee to add a minimum acceptable skill level qualification (TBD) [0] - Did you happen to catch any of the men's curling in PyeongChang? [1] - And who could forget the inspiration behind _Cool Runnings_? [2] [0]https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/19/elizabeth-swaney-olympic-halfpipe-contest/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/19/elizabeth-swaney-olym... [1]http://time.com/5173987/usa-mens-curling-gold-medal/ http://time.com/5173987/usa-mens-curling-gold-medal/ [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Runnings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Runnings
hnzix 8y ago
Graduating from an Ivy League college is hardly an Olympic feat. Don't get stuck on the analogy.
- fromthestart 8y ago
  The point is that the range of human achievement is graduated, and even if we are all given equal abilities and have equal drives, we will not all see equal success. This is a dangerous fallacy. It's obvious when you look at people and conclude from, say, physical stature, that a person is exceedingly unlikely to succeed as a professional linebacker. But somehow we do not even allow for the possibility of our cognitive limits being set by a combination of our genes and our experiences.
goliatone 8y ago
I would look at it the other way around, it is far more likely that if you train and compete with the best you will reach closer to your full potential than if you train and compete in “minor” leagues (thinking about sports, specifically soccer). So, I think the OPs point was, if you could compare one individual with themselves they would perform/grow better in an environment with more performing peers. I would add, not everyone with the “raw talent” can deal with the stress and pressure of competitive environments the same way.
pjc50 8y ago
We have to be quite careful about what we mean here, because if the success criterion is "be in the top 3 after competing with everyone else" and we enter a million "uplifted" ordinary people in the competition, only 3 of them are going to win. If we make a more modest criterion like "be within x% of the victor" or more interestingly "beat the records from an older olympics", then it gets more doable. Look at how many people can run a four minute mile now, for example. > simply with training and dedication The training is expensive and takes over your entire life, and the dedication required is really the thing people empathise with Olympic athletes for. In some sense the real achievement is not giving up.

TomMckenny 8y ago

If anyone can be so uplifted then the selection criterion, which claims to be on brains, should just be a lottery. And more significantly, currently would be astoundingly unjust in that it chooses so heavily from the most advantaged branch of society.