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The problem is that neither models work and both have shortcomings. In the US model healthcare is a profit center which allow those who can afford to get help

The problem is that neither models work and both have shortcomings. In the US model healthcare is a profit center which allow those who can afford to get help and those who can't various sub-optimal variations of help. In the ex. Scandinavian model healthcare is a cost center and there is a set budget each year which the providers need to function within. This means that prioritization needs to happen and various illnesses and procedures are limited to x amount a year. Healthcare is a wicked problem cause it's a good thing that it's a profit center in the sense that it provides budgets to do more research and it's a a bad thing because it makes it unreasonable expensive to to not have healthcare. In the scandinavian model it's a good thing that everyone gets treated (more or less) the same but a bad thing that they don't have as much capital to work with invest in new machines and that there are budgets which limit how much the government will spend on various procedures. Personally I would like the system to be so that you pay to get normal check-ups, there is no limit to how many doctors are allowed in different parts of the healtcare sector and no one goes bankrupt from getting seriously ill. That would at least help with some sort of a balance I think. Of course the problem is that the US is such a big country with huge immigration and scandinavian countries arent so it's always hard to compare.

xixixao 8y ago
Agreeable until the last sentence: > Of course the problem is that the US is such a big country with huge immigration and scandinavian countries arent so it's always hard to compare. US Population: 325 million US Immigration: 1.5 million (2016) EU Population: 512 million EU Immigration: 2 million (2016) (taken from top Google results) It's fairly accurate to say that, compared to the US, the whole of EU has a "Scandinavian" model of health-care (ie, states guarantee good health-care services to everyone).
- krupan 8y ago
  There isn't a single EU health care system. Each country still does their own. Maybe each US state could do their own, but there are huge concerns about freeloader problems since we have unrestricted movement between states in the U.S. From what I've read the systems of European countries are being threatened by the freeloader problem that increase immigration as of late has caused.
  - xixixao 8y ago
    There is unrestricted movement in the Schengen area, which is a subset of 21+ states of EU for the past 10 years, with current population of 420 million people. (8+ state for the past 21 years, those 8 states having population of 291 million today) source wikipedia
    - ThomPete 8y ago
      That doesent mean the healtcare system is the same, its not. Again you probably need to do a little more studying of scandinavia and the EU cause you are getting some fundamentals pretty wrong.
- ThomPete 8y ago
  Scandinavia is different than the rest of europe and they dont have 11 million illegal immigrants too. Belive me i know both places pretty intimately.
  - ThomPete 8y ago
    How on earth can can i get downvoted for saying what is true?
    - fencepost 8y ago
      You can get downvoted by sounding like a knee jerk racist. Go spend a little time looking into where healthcare money is actually being spent and written off as bad debt in the US then come back with numbers and sources. If you can back up that illegal immigrants are the source of healthcare cost issues in pretty sure we'll all be impressed.
      - ThomPete 8y ago
        Huh? That's not what I said at all. I was explaining how the US system is very different than the Scandinavian system. That's all. You can't compare them at all. Whatever racist undertone you heard there was your doing not mine.
        fencepost 8y ago
        Any time you're in an online discussion of US healthcare expenses and use the phrase "11 million illegal immigrants" you've pretty much just placed yourself into a category as far as almost anyone else reading the discussion is concerned. That may not be what you meant to do and that categorization may not be fair, but it's one of many possible trigger phrases.
        ThomPete 8y ago
        Its pretty obvious to anyone who is not looking to get triggered that there is nothing racist nor fingerpointing in what i say. The illegal immigration is used to illustrate one of the things that make the us system wastely different especially from the scandinavian system even though they are always used as an example. Almost every person there is has lived their whole life there. And given i dont actually give you any other reason to think i am racist its pretty absurd that you decide to make that interpretation of what i say but unfortunately its becoming more and more the norm. Try asking me what i mean next time instead of just throwing words around accusing people you dont know anything about for being racist.
tormeh 8y ago
My previous Norwegian employer gave me private health care as a perk. You had to get a recommendation from a government general practitioner first, but after that, it was all private, presumably to get employees back to work faster instead of having them wait for months for an operation. Of course, most people/companies can't be bothered with this, since the government health care is good enough, but paying for private healthcare is definitely a non-theoretical option.
- ThomPete 8y ago
  It is but they dont do the complex procedures which is the costly part.
Broken_Hippo 8y ago
Of course the problem is that the US is such a big country with huge immigration and scandinavian countries arent so it's always hard to compare. I really don't understand why it being a big country would make things difficult. Any sane person would adjust the needs dependent on state and smaller. Norway's population is about the same as Indiana's, but is more sparsely populated - so some of the same problems as the western states. The benefit of the US being large would be that there are more pools to draw money from. And there are just as many opportunities to save money. For example, Norway will send a nurse to one's home up to 6 times a day. For free. Even if you live on a cabin on an island or on a mountain. Why? Simply because it is still cheaper than a nursing home, overall. And as a bonus, folks tend to live longer and be happier with life. As far as immigration goes, it is impossible to compare. But: Not every immigrant gets free healthcare. I get the state healthcare because my immigration status is family immigration - my spouse is Norwegian. If I were here for a job, however, I'd have to pay for health insurance. Of course, they'll still treat someone that pays cash and still treat emergencies. I don't really see how this would be an issue in the US either so long as the laws were set up correctly. I'll further add that I think the healthcare is a bit different if folks are coming from an EU country - there are agreements in place about health care and things like that. Again, I don't see why this wouldn't be the case in the states.
- mattkrause 8y ago
  > Not every immigrant gets free healthcare I think it depends on the job. If you work for a foreign company and are temporarily in Norway (e.g., spending a quarter at the Olso branch from your HQ elsewhere), you're on the hook for your own insurance: https://helsenorge.no/bo-i-utlandet/posted-workers-outside-the-eu-eea https://helsenorge.no/bo-i-utlandet/posted-workers-outside-t... If you immigrate to Norway for a job, you're covered like everyone else: https://helsenorge.no/foreigners-in-norway/employee-from-a-country-outside-the-eu-eea https://helsenorge.no/foreigners-in-norway/employee-from-a-c...
- ThomPete 8y ago
  That's because you haven't considered how big the US is and you haven't considered that the US is mostly a land of immigrants not a land of people who lived their almost all their lives for several generations. Healthcare systems like the scandinavian are established over decades as the young needs to pay for the old until they get old themselves and have to get covered by the young. This kind of system is more or less impossible in the US and it would be extremely expensive. That doesn't mean the current system in the US is any good, it's horrible to say the least. But the scandinavian dream isn't possible in the US and I have yet to see anyone showing any actual proposal that would work given the setup with federal and state and what they can decide.

xixixao 8y ago

Agreeable until the last sentence: > Of course the problem is that the US is such a big country with huge immigration and scandinavian countries arent so it's always hard to compare. US Population: 325 million US Immigration: 1.5 million (2016) EU Population: 512 million EU Immigration: 2 million (2016) (taken from top Google results) It's fairly accurate to say that, compared to the US, the whole of EU has a "Scandinavian" model of health-care (ie, states guarantee good health-care services to everyone).

krupan 8y ago
There isn't a single EU health care system. Each country still does their own. Maybe each US state could do their own, but there are huge concerns about freeloader problems since we have unrestricted movement between states in the U.S. From what I've read the systems of European countries are being threatened by the freeloader problem that increase immigration as of late has caused.
- xixixao 8y ago
  There is unrestricted movement in the Schengen area, which is a subset of 21+ states of EU for the past 10 years, with current population of 420 million people. (8+ state for the past 21 years, those 8 states having population of 291 million today) source wikipedia
  - ThomPete 8y ago
    That doesent mean the healtcare system is the same, its not. Again you probably need to do a little more studying of scandinavia and the EU cause you are getting some fundamentals pretty wrong.
ThomPete 8y ago
Scandinavia is different than the rest of europe and they dont have 11 million illegal immigrants too. Belive me i know both places pretty intimately.
- ThomPete 8y ago
  How on earth can can i get downvoted for saying what is true?
  - fencepost 8y ago
    You can get downvoted by sounding like a knee jerk racist. Go spend a little time looking into where healthcare money is actually being spent and written off as bad debt in the US then come back with numbers and sources. If you can back up that illegal immigrants are the source of healthcare cost issues in pretty sure we'll all be impressed.
    - ThomPete 8y ago
      Huh? That's not what I said at all. I was explaining how the US system is very different than the Scandinavian system. That's all. You can't compare them at all. Whatever racist undertone you heard there was your doing not mine.
      - fencepost 8y ago
        Any time you're in an online discussion of US healthcare expenses and use the phrase "11 million illegal immigrants" you've pretty much just placed yourself into a category as far as almost anyone else reading the discussion is concerned. That may not be what you meant to do and that categorization may not be fair, but it's one of many possible trigger phrases.
        ThomPete 8y ago
        Its pretty obvious to anyone who is not looking to get triggered that there is nothing racist nor fingerpointing in what i say. The illegal immigration is used to illustrate one of the things that make the us system wastely different especially from the scandinavian system even though they are always used as an example. Almost every person there is has lived their whole life there. And given i dont actually give you any other reason to think i am racist its pretty absurd that you decide to make that interpretation of what i say but unfortunately its becoming more and more the norm. Try asking me what i mean next time instead of just throwing words around accusing people you dont know anything about for being racist.

tormeh 8y ago

My previous Norwegian employer gave me private health care as a perk. You had to get a recommendation from a government general practitioner first, but after that, it was all private, presumably to get employees back to work faster instead of having them wait for months for an operation. Of course, most people/companies can't be bothered with this, since the government health care is good enough, but paying for private healthcare is definitely a non-theoretical option.

ThomPete 8y ago
It is but they dont do the complex procedures which is the costly part.

Broken_Hippo 8y ago

Of course the problem is that the US is such a big country with huge immigration and scandinavian countries arent so it's always hard to compare. I really don't understand why it being a big country would make things difficult. Any sane person would adjust the needs dependent on state and smaller. Norway's population is about the same as Indiana's, but is more sparsely populated - so some of the same problems as the western states. The benefit of the US being large would be that there are more pools to draw money from. And there are just as many opportunities to save money. For example, Norway will send a nurse to one's home up to 6 times a day. For free. Even if you live on a cabin on an island or on a mountain. Why? Simply because it is still cheaper than a nursing home, overall. And as a bonus, folks tend to live longer and be happier with life. As far as immigration goes, it is impossible to compare. But: Not every immigrant gets free healthcare. I get the state healthcare because my immigration status is family immigration - my spouse is Norwegian. If I were here for a job, however, I'd have to pay for health insurance. Of course, they'll still treat someone that pays cash and still treat emergencies. I don't really see how this would be an issue in the US either so long as the laws were set up correctly. I'll further add that I think the healthcare is a bit different if folks are coming from an EU country - there are agreements in place about health care and things like that. Again, I don't see why this wouldn't be the case in the states.

mattkrause 8y ago
> Not every immigrant gets free healthcare I think it depends on the job. If you work for a foreign company and are temporarily in Norway (e.g., spending a quarter at the Olso branch from your HQ elsewhere), you're on the hook for your own insurance: https://helsenorge.no/bo-i-utlandet/posted-workers-outside-the-eu-eea https://helsenorge.no/bo-i-utlandet/posted-workers-outside-t... If you immigrate to Norway for a job, you're covered like everyone else: https://helsenorge.no/foreigners-in-norway/employee-from-a-country-outside-the-eu-eea https://helsenorge.no/foreigners-in-norway/employee-from-a-c...
ThomPete 8y ago
That's because you haven't considered how big the US is and you haven't considered that the US is mostly a land of immigrants not a land of people who lived their almost all their lives for several generations. Healthcare systems like the scandinavian are established over decades as the young needs to pay for the old until they get old themselves and have to get covered by the young. This kind of system is more or less impossible in the US and it would be extremely expensive. That doesn't mean the current system in the US is any good, it's horrible to say the least. But the scandinavian dream isn't possible in the US and I have yet to see anyone showing any actual proposal that would work given the setup with federal and state and what they can decide.