6 ms·

You cannot be old-school and hype. That's the reason why it is old school. And the people who can't make good database design choices are exactly the kind of

You cannot be old-school and hype. That's the reason why it is old school. And the people who can't make good database design choices are exactly the kind of people who should be using SQL. Postgres knows how to optimize and plan queries efficiently based on the actual distributions of values in your dataset. These poor choosers should be doing that... by hand? https://www.postgresql.org/docs/11/planner-optimizer.html https://www.postgresql.org/docs/11/planner-optimizer.html

zzzcpan 8y ago
This is what I'm talking about. You think that some feature that makes performance unpredictable is that important. While it's the last thing you should care about.
- sparkie 8y ago
  What people should care about is the integrity and consistency of the data they're storing. RDBMS do an extremely good job of generalising this problem with reasonable performance, which suits the majority of real world problems. The ideas behind it are understood by most of the industry. It should be the default choice (or plain filesystem storage), unless you have a specific requirement for something different. In the latter case, this should be people who are well informed about the database choices they're making.
- astine 8y ago
  The only way for query performance to be truly predictable is for your data to be static. If that's not your situation then a query optimizer is incredibly helpful because it means that you don't have to rewrite your queries every time you add an index.
  - bmdavi3 8y ago
    It also means that as your data grows or shrinks, the optimizer will notice and change the plan accordingly if it makes sense. That means that 18 months after you implemented a feature you've long since forgotten about, you don't have to come back and figure out what the new plan should be. And that's huuuuge. You can find accounts of the db changing the plan from a good one to a bad one, but I'll go out on not that far of a limb and say that those are < 1% of the cases. Nobody complains about the queries they didn't have to come back and change. And the better the optimizer, the better that trade off will be.
- michelpp 8y ago
  Unpredictable performance would mean, you can't predict how long a specific query will take. This is the opposite of how postgres works. If a query is slow, it's predictably slow if the data doesn't change. So what you must mean is, when the data changes, it doesn't behave like you expect. So again, how do these poor choosers make better decisions in the face of changing data when they have to write all the algorithms by hand, and understand how to scale the data correctly? Seems to me that pretty soon they'd just be writing a very crappy database on top of some keystore.
pas 8y ago
hipsters are allegedly the cool old-schoolers. the whole promise of mongo is/was distributed (HA+LB), which was all the rage back then, when AWS AZs dropped like flies every few weeks and scaling was seen as the problem. go fast, break things was the mantra. and it's still not trivial to do pgsql maintenance without downtime, whereas in a clustered/distributed "solution", you can enjoy certain additional freedoms. this includes the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot (data inconsistency, but you had to fight a bit for that state by promoting a non latest slave to master).
- darkarmani 8y ago
  > the whole promise of mongo is/was distributed (HA+LB) Yes. It is so easy to bring up a mongo cluster and feel like you have HA. Don't worry it won't be proven wrong until you have writes during your cluster degradation and are unlucky.
  - pas 8y ago
    it works. 4.0 gives you transactions. it's pretty great. and, most importantly, as far as I know the default replica set config is safe. (durable, consistent, atomic) it handles a lot of failover scenarios for you automatically. and you have to manually intervene to get into a bad state - which might be okay for that particular business case (better than full downtime)

zzzcpan 8y ago

This is what I'm talking about. You think that some feature that makes performance unpredictable is that important. While it's the last thing you should care about.

sparkie 8y ago
What people should care about is the integrity and consistency of the data they're storing. RDBMS do an extremely good job of generalising this problem with reasonable performance, which suits the majority of real world problems. The ideas behind it are understood by most of the industry. It should be the default choice (or plain filesystem storage), unless you have a specific requirement for something different. In the latter case, this should be people who are well informed about the database choices they're making.
astine 8y ago
The only way for query performance to be truly predictable is for your data to be static. If that's not your situation then a query optimizer is incredibly helpful because it means that you don't have to rewrite your queries every time you add an index.
- bmdavi3 8y ago
  It also means that as your data grows or shrinks, the optimizer will notice and change the plan accordingly if it makes sense. That means that 18 months after you implemented a feature you've long since forgotten about, you don't have to come back and figure out what the new plan should be. And that's huuuuge. You can find accounts of the db changing the plan from a good one to a bad one, but I'll go out on not that far of a limb and say that those are < 1% of the cases. Nobody complains about the queries they didn't have to come back and change. And the better the optimizer, the better that trade off will be.
michelpp 8y ago
Unpredictable performance would mean, you can't predict how long a specific query will take. This is the opposite of how postgres works. If a query is slow, it's predictably slow if the data doesn't change. So what you must mean is, when the data changes, it doesn't behave like you expect. So again, how do these poor choosers make better decisions in the face of changing data when they have to write all the algorithms by hand, and understand how to scale the data correctly? Seems to me that pretty soon they'd just be writing a very crappy database on top of some keystore.

pas 8y ago

hipsters are allegedly the cool old-schoolers. the whole promise of mongo is/was distributed (HA+LB), which was all the rage back then, when AWS AZs dropped like flies every few weeks and scaling was seen as the problem. go fast, break things was the mantra. and it's still not trivial to do pgsql maintenance without downtime, whereas in a clustered/distributed "solution", you can enjoy certain additional freedoms. this includes the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot (data inconsistency, but you had to fight a bit for that state by promoting a non latest slave to master).

darkarmani 8y ago
> the whole promise of mongo is/was distributed (HA+LB) Yes. It is so easy to bring up a mongo cluster and feel like you have HA. Don't worry it won't be proven wrong until you have writes during your cluster degradation and are unlucky.
- pas 8y ago
  it works. 4.0 gives you transactions. it's pretty great. and, most importantly, as far as I know the default replica set config is safe. (durable, consistent, atomic) it handles a lot of failover scenarios for you automatically. and you have to manually intervene to get into a bad state - which might be okay for that particular business case (better than full downtime)